Recently a few members and I have come across something of a grey area in the differentiation of proactive Beta types (FeNi & SeTi), and I think there's a lot of room to learn here, so I wanted to open up the discussion.
And hopefully invite others ( Nexet , The Doctor , Calin come to mind) to offer some insights!
Some questions:
How would you describe your relationship to rich sensory experience?
How would you describe your relationship to social norms and to your culture?
Is there a certain philosophy, ideal or aspiration that is central to you?
One example of an FeNi with heavy Se (who is often typed as ESTP in mbti) is Will Smith. From his early career as the Fresh Prince, he seems very Se-lead on screen, but whenever we see him talk in interviews, we see a much more Fe-directive attitude, rigidity and yang.
Here, he's entirely rigid/calculated (Fe)
Here, his eyes look a lot more Se, but what he says remains very much proactive in that yang Fe way. Almost a bit "Bruce Lee".
Another example, which The Doctor brought up as a potential FeNi misread as SeTi is Shawn Phan:
Both seem like they can coordinate the social atmosphere very well, both appear alert to the present, etc.
And it doesn't help that there's slightly more "eyes leading body" happening even in the FeNi, due to how Se-Ni work.
What do you guys think? How could FeNi be better differentiated from SeTi?
I actually wanted to start a similar thread, but I'm in the process of building a startup, so yeah, I ain't got much time. I'll answer these questions shortly and come back to elaborate later, if time allows.
How would you describe your relationship to rich sensory experience?
I usually crave rich sensory experience and I cannot function well without it. I would consider myself a thrill seeker. I love placing myself into dangerous and/or physically demanding situations, because they get me into the zone, and everything is more exciting when you're in a state of flow. I also have strong physical appetites and I usually indulge them without hesitation. Music needs to be loud, food needs to be tasty, sex needs to be rough and passionate, my workouts are exhausting, and I often push the pedal to the metal when I'm behind the wheel.
I'm never reckless, though. Well, at least not until I get drunk, but I hardly do that anymore.
That being said, I'm not a huge fan of boisterous and fully crowded places, such as night clubs or large festivals. I do go to concerts when I'm in the mood for moshing and stage diving, but being constantly surrounded by people to the point of suffocation, having to scream to make myself heard, and bathroom waiting lines are kind of annoying to me.
How would you describe your relationship to social norms and to your culture?
I'm fully aware of social and cultural norms, but I don't really care about them and I break them when they get in my way. I value my personal interests above the ethical principles of a group or community. I also prefer interacting with people in a bold, assertive (yet polite) way, or by being playfully jerkish, as opposed to engaging with them in a warm, cooperative manner (unless it's in my interest to choose the latter). This makes me sound like an asshole, but there's no point in being phony, lol.
Is there a certain philosophy, ideal or aspiration that is central to you?
I strive for personal freedom and self-mastery. A few years ago, I was an anarchist (and then I moved towards libertarianism). I used to be that kind of guy who wanted to change the way people think and create a better world, but ain't nobody got time for that. If you wanna change the world, start with changing yourself and the things you can actually control.
As far as "formal" philosophies are concerned, I flirt with stoicism and transhumanism.
On another note, I'm pretty sure my father is SeTi. I've always considered myself to be very similar to him, but most family acquaintances say that I'm more like my TeNi mother. Since me and my father share the same functions, we have similar world views, and a lot of common traits and interests. However, being a Je-lead, I can see why people perceive me to be more like my mother. We both have quite an assertive, No BS attitude, and we can get pretty harsh if things don't go our way. We also look angry pretty much all the time, even when it's not the case, lol. As I already mentioned, I'll elaborate later (hopefully).
Post by The Doctor on Apr 15, 2016 12:10:36 GMT -5
How would you describe your relationship to rich sensory experience? I don't really know how to explain this. My sensory inputs are just inherent and enjoyed in the moment unless they get too intense or chaotic, at which point it's just overwhelming and annoying. I can become enamored with moments of sensory input, but it's more the whole effect of everything in the moment. Have I said "in the moment" often enough here? Heh.
How would you describe your relationship to social norms and to your culture? I'm very aware of the social norms, usually on a subconscious or reflexive level. With most of them, I reflexively comply and support them without even considering that it is possible to refute them. However, with certain social norms, I'm hostile. For example, small talk is so annoying to me, and has been so often used as an excuse for people to become displeased with me that I know rebel against it consciously. I still feel compelled to engage in it, and my willful resistance is a conscious form of 'fighting back'.
Is there a certain philosophy, ideal or aspiration that is central to you? Christianity (though not the standard church going bible thumping version), the ideal of American Constitution as intended by our founding fathers, libertarianism, philanthropy, giving back to the community, taoism, a gentleman's code of honor, and as corny as it sounds the ethics and morals of various fictional heroes. I've also 'taken sides' against certain philosophies, ideals or aspirations, and in a way see the groups as entities rather than the sum of their individual members.
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
Both seem like they can coordinate the social atmosphere very well, both appear alert to the present, etc.
And it doesn't help that there's slightly more "eyes leading body" happening even in the FeNi, due to how Se-Ni work.
What do you guys think? How could FeNi be better differentiated from SeTi?
With SeTi, you'll see a lot of Se, Ti, and Fe. There won't be as much Ni zone out, as the Se will keep the gaze locks fairly constant, even when the 'zone outs happen'. You'll see more of the 'looking through you' zone out effect than the drift and 'looking at nothing'. The eye movements tend to be in all directions, and jumping from specific thing to specific thing deliberately (Se > Ni).
With FeNi, you'll see a lot of Fe, Ni, and Se. There won't be as much Ti internalizing or stillness. Fe will keep engaging, even when the Ti is going, there will be a constant awareness of the 'audience'. Fe will also try to hold attention by talking through the Ti. The eye movements tend to be down and to the side, even when scanning at specific things (Ni > Se), and will usually dart to people (Fe) especially if they are in motion (Se).
You'll see more of an Se=Ni effect in FeNi than SeTi. You'll see more of an Fe=Ti effect in SeTi than FeNi.
Last Edit: Apr 15, 2016 13:16:37 GMT -5 by The Doctor
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
How would you describe your relationship to rich sensory experience?
Want to know why I will never opt for a programming occupation? Yup, you guessed it! It's boring. I've tried it actually and I'm not that bad at it, but I didn't try it because of what some people may think to be it's "conceptual beauty". I was inspired by the mythological "coding master", who could shred a keyboard like he was playing Guitar Hero and design systems, hack firewalls, and obtain top secret blueprints in minutes! That's not the reality for most, but I wanted it to be mine.
I don't know. I really just enjoy controlling fast paced things skillfully or doing what most people do slowly quickly or with such dexterity, efficiency, and perfection that I can get respect (props) and a sense of indispensability for who I am and what I can do.
I'm not very athletic, but I do have the endurance (will-power?)suited for long term physical tasks, which ultimately, in the area of laborous work, (where this is mostly utilized) is what gives me an upper hand.
There's a need for "physical calamity" almost. When I say that I mean, I thrive under pressure, in the middle of a fast paced environment, where occurrences are firing off left and right and they require my action, attention, and/or organization.
People lately, have been pointing out that an undercurrent of aggression, frustration, or stress can be seen in all I do, when too much is occurring or if metaphorically speaking, I bite off more than can be chewed and digested properly. And when people are uncooperative or unmotivated, I will usually do both or one of these things:
Handle it on my own, free of complaints, and tantrums. Or cut communication until both parties agree (usually nonverbally) that cooperation is a must.
This comes from an inherent "I don't need you" attitude that has been developed, coming from the fact that most things that have to accomplished in pretty much any, but not all environments can be done, in time, alone, which goes back to that whole self-reliance thing I spoke about in that video.
Extrapolations in other areas of life where this sort of activity is involved can be made. It's all just how I react to stimuli. And probably will change with maturity or consultation.
How would you describe your relationship to social norms and to your culture?
I may not like to admit it, but I'm pretty indulgent. In my own way though. Not following the crowd, not leading the crowd, but definitiely not in the the crowd too deep. People always say there's something "different" about me or in their words "You ain't no ordinary n***a." And you know, I nod in agreement, while simulataneouly thinking, "Who is? Who doesn't interweave different parts of their culture that they favor to create their own style, their own way of life, being, and existing in society? " That's deep, but check this, I think we all run in the crowd sporadically to get what we want, what we prefer. Some leave with their piece and won't be back for a while but the others, well, they'll be rocking with the crowd doing that one dance (you know, one behind the other grabbing each other's shoulders while swaying with the beat) for a while.
Is there a certain philosophy, ideal or aspiration that is central to you?
Naw, not really. Like I said it changes and develops over time. It's good to mutable about these types of things especially when you're single : ) .
What do you guys think? How could FeNi be better differentiated from SeTi?
You seem to be aware that there isn't going to be an easy way to do something like this when an individual is playing a role on camera, by himself/herself at that. Maybe it's just me but when signals fail, I always try to spot the energy. Fe seems Directive toward the audience more often than Se. Vague,vague, vague, and who am I telling you know this. You know what? Maybe Fe/Se users should get a special test. With minimum controlled variables. You frequently request dialogue with other people for type me videos, so it's not really special per Se (haha). However, Fe energy is more observable with an actual familiar as an audience to the subject, pushing the buttons on the emotional register with casual conversation rather than interrogation. One on one conversations with Fe-doms are like playgrounds, the real heat for everyone is the actual stage. I dunno spitballing.
Hey, I would be happy to join this conversation if I may, because this subject is of high interest to me, and is actually in resonance with some questionning that I've been having lately. Hopefully my contribution will help to shed some light on this debate. Oh, and please, forgive my English, it is a bit rusty, so I might have some trouble to express my ideas as articulately as I would do in French
So to set the context of my questionnings, I've been interested in MBTI typology for 4 years now, and I did the CTVR here a few years ago. At the time I was typed SeTi, but really couldn't relate to it. With time I've had second thoughts about this typing, especially because I read more about it and got more grasp on the CT's conception of this type. For example, I can relate to the sensasionnal analyst sub-type because indeed, I tend to discern patterns in situations and people. BUT,(of course there is a "but" ) that's it. Other than that, I relate much more with the proactive dimension of FeNi (refining and expressing judgements), than with the proactive dimension of SeTi (seeking sensory experiences). That's something I can develop later through the three questions you asked in the first post Auburn.
May be I should make another video, but I have to say that I feel very frustrated by this exercise, because it feels very unnatural to me. I don't know how to behave without a real person in front of me, I don't know what to look at, so I usually end up zooning out and I mostly feel very awkward and self-conscious. Maybe I should consider making a video interacting with someone, but that would feel unnatural to me too, and I think none of my relatives would accept anyway.
So there, my two pence about the subject Of course I would be happy to give you more materials (even if not videos), like pictures, testimony and so-on if needed
Last Edit: Apr 23, 2016 3:29:28 GMT -5 by Shivaree
Post by ayoungspirit on Apr 23, 2016 4:56:47 GMT -5
Shivaree : May be I should make another video, but I have to say that I feel very frustrated by this exercise, because it feels very unnatural to me. I don't know how to behave without a real person in front of me, I don't know what to look at, so I usually end up zooning out and I mostly feel very awkward and self-conscious. Maybe I should consider making a video interacting with someone, but that would feel unnatural to me too, and I think none of my relatives would accept anyway.
Yes, this is a reccuring issue about online VR, and from the first observations we have been able to make, it seems indeed to favor the expression of reactive/introverted processes. If you come up with any suggestion toward making the setting more comfortable, we would be happy to hear it.
In the meantime, if you have kept a copy of your previous videos, we could still take another look at it. The overall theory has been refined quite a bit since the first assessment, and a lot of members have simply gained more experience. A fresh perspective could yield interesting results.
So there, my two pence about the subject Of course I would be happy to give you more materials (even if not videos), like pictures, testimony and so-on if needed
Again, testimonies are always welcome, feel free to contribute to any thread you are interested in. Your openness about your history with typing and VR is very appreciable, and whatever the type you might be, it should provide a helpful contrast on these ultimately transversal/transtypical(?) subjects. However, it could be useful to link to your further VR experiences, especially if it happens to depart from the initial intent of the debate.
Last Edit: Apr 23, 2016 6:27:57 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Auburn The more I read about different SeTi shades and manifestations (especially about the Analytical Sensationalist subtype), the more I start wondering.
Even though I exhibit strong FeNi visual signals, I relate quite a lot to the SeTi desires and motivations. I'm not particularly interested in refining and expressing ethical judgements. I see judgement as a tool which I frequently use to optimize my sensory experiences. I seek to be in control of my environment, not because I'm particularly interested in coordinating the emotional atmosphere, but because of the freedom that comes with such control. My main desire is to be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want, and the only way to fulfill that desire is by being in control of myself and my environment.
Yes, I mentioned before that I used to be that kind of guy who wanted to change the world. However, this could have been a SeTi anti-sage thing. As a kid, I was labeled as gifted, therefore huge expectations were placed on me. I was very good at math, physics, chemistry and computer science, so teachers kept pushing me to study for school olympiads and stuff like that. All I wanted to do was play football/soccer and videogames, though, lol.
So as I grew up, I started defying the structure and expectations that were forced upon me, and I became an anarchist. Initially, I didn't really care about creating a world free from exploitation and hierarchy. I only rebelled against authority because I was fed up with its bullshit. Then I got drawn into anarchist political circles, and that's when I realized how silly I was being for fighting for such an ideal. That's when I abandoned the idea of changing the world and decided to focus on self-improvement.
Another thing that I should mention is that I wasn't always so assertive, disciplined, and consciously aware of social dynamics. In fact, as a kid I was quite clueless when it came to social interactions and I didn't really care about how others see me. However, I'm very observant, and I soon noticed how important it is to be good with people. Knowing what makes people tick creates a lot of opportunities, that's why I started to study and analyze them. And I came to the conclusion that people are drawn to someone who knows what he's doing. They respect someone who exudes authority. They admire confidence and assertiveness. They get out of the way of someone who knows where he's going. So I worked on these traits until I managed to integrate them into my psyche.
So, what do you think? Are these typical characteristics of the FeNi visionary subtype, or should I consider SeTi as an alternative?
Interesting. I too was in Gifted, and I was always athletic, but I was too preoccupied with my imagination. Instead of joining the teams they kept urging me to play sports, I preferred to focus my attention on roleplaying games, books, video games, theories, movies, comics. I kicked ass in gym class, and the coaches tried really hard to pressure me into their respective teams. Reality was boring as a kid. I blame my N.
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
Calin - Quite an interesting story/progression! I'm a little interested in what anarchist circles those were.
It seems to me like your personal journey has taken you in-and-out of different Se and Fe endeavors. It seems like both motivations have evolved in you over time, both in sophistication and desire... which is what we would expect from a real, living individual.
I'm not entirely sure it's worth changing your type based on where you find yourself in this stage, though? My impression is that, given a slightly different life path, changing aspects of the world could still be a motivation for you. Either way, not all FeNi want to change the world, as there is also an academic and a sensationalist shade of FeNi.
The subtypes of the profiles are applicable to most individuals in a quadrant, given certain circumstances. As per:
The four types within each function quadrant will share crossover with each other; many times the qualities of oneβs subtype manifest in another type of the same quadrant. This is because the subtypes are first and foremost modes of expressing the same functions, arranged in these sixteen chapters by what modes are most common in a type. To that end, let us surmise the qualities that run across all four types within each of these quadrants. Cognitive Type, ch.29
Either way, I'm trying to figure this out myself as well, and I take your views into consideration. Hence this thread, lol. We need to expand and better define the profiles, and your input helps to do that.
The Doctor I was also quite an imaginative kid, but I always tried to apply that imagination to reality (i.e. drawing, lego building, creating my own story lines and directing them with action figures, etc). I wasn't content with just imagining things, listening to stories, reading, and so on. In fact, I pretty much hated reading, and even today I still don't have the patience to read fiction. The only fiction books that I really enjoyed as a kid were those written by Jack London.
I loved documentaries and learning new things, though, but everything I've ever learned that kept my interest for long periods of time was somehow connected to the real world. My parents keep reminding me that by the time I was 2, I knew pretty much every car model, dinosaur, and carnivore predator. I still like those things, lol.
And yes, I was very drawn to physical activities (especially football and martial arts), but unfortunately I couldn't really practice them as much as I wanted, because I had to study math, physics, and all that boring kind of stuff. I was extremely good at those subjects, but as soon as I grew up, I lost interest in them because the teachers kept pushing them down my throat and I got sick of it.
Auburn they were mainly anarcho-syndicalist circles, filled with modern day hippies who kept talking about 'fighting oppression, ending poverty and liberating the proletarian class' without taking any concrete action. I used to believe that kind of stuff for a while because I was familiar with Catalonia and the Spanish Revolution, but as soon as I started questioning their methods and theories, they were unable to counteract my arguments and got extremely dogmatic. Then I moved toward anarcho-capitalist circles, but even if those were much more logical and coherent, I still came to the conclusion that trying to change the minds of 7 billion people in order to successfully implement such a system was a huge waste of time, so I stopped caring about politics.
And yeah, it would be foolish to believe that every FeNi type wants to change the world, but I thought that bringing some more psychological input into this thread would help us get a better understanding of the differences and similarities between these two types. I still think that my type is most likely FeNi, but after learning more about SeTi, I wanna make sure of it. The FeNi visionary shade fits me very well, but I also relate to plenty of aspects found in the SeTi descriptions.
Btw, I've seen you've been studying Socionics lately, so I wonder, what are your thoughts on the SLE-ESTp and EIE-ENFj descriptions? [On Socionics I've been typed as ESTP when it was inconceivable for me to be anything other than a NT, lol. Well, even if they may be wrong, at least they got my Quadra right - unlike the MBTI folks.]
My impression is that, given a slightly different life path, changing aspects of the world could still be a motivation for you.
Perhaps it still is, but I realized that it's much better to change the world by example, by creating value, by changing yourself and the things you can actually control.
However, changing the world was never my main motivation, it all started as a desire for personal freedom.
The Doctor I was also quite an imaginative kid, but I always tried to apply that imagination to reality (i.e. drawing, lego building, creating my own story lines and directing them with action figures, etc). I wasn't content with just imagining things, listening to stories, reading, and so on. In fact, I pretty much hated reading, and even today I still don't have the patience to read fiction. The only fiction books that I really enjoyed as a kid were those written by Jack London.
I loved documentaries and learning new things, though, but everything I've ever learned that kept my interest for long periods of time was somehow connected to the real world. My parents keep reminding me that by the time I was 2, I knew pretty much every car model, dinosaur, and carnivore predator. I still like those things, lol.
And yes, I was very drawn to physical activities (especially football and martial arts), but unfortunately I couldn't really practice them as much as I wanted, because I had to study math, physics, and all that boring kind of stuff. I was extremely good at those subjects, but as soon as I grew up, I lost interest in them because the teachers kept pushing them down my throat and I got sick of it.
This sounds a LOT like me, actually. I was always trying to make my nerdy sensibilities a reality. I did a lot of sparring, martial arts, fencing, melee, and I have a lot of trouble making it through a fiction novel. I don't really read non-fiction either, so much as I just sort of scan and absorb it at my own spiraling pace (if that makes any sense). Documentaries are where it's at. And yeah, I knew all of the dinosaurs at a very young age.
Btw, I've seen you've been studying Socionics lately, so I wonder, what are your thoughts on the SLE-ESTp and EIE-ENFj descriptions? [On Socionics I've been typed as ESTP when it was inconceivable for me to be anything other than a NT, lol. Well, even if they may be wrong, at least they got my Quadra right - unlike the MBTI folks.]
I know this wasn't directed at me, but while I think Socionics has some issues, I really like the Ni-EIE description for myself. It's probably the closest I've seen to a best fit for me. Also, I like the Socionics descriptions for cognitive functions a little better, as they seem more detached from cultural expectations.
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.