Vultology of Mental Illness

Alerith: Very interesting. I eagerly await your findings!

Footage Analysis: Schizophrenia

The presence of schizophrenia makes it considerably difficult to determine the psychological type of a person. The illness adds a sort of paralysis to their expression, as well as a weight to their brow and consistent emotional tension around the mouth. This tends to conflate the signals of Fe/Ti and Fi/Te, as well as Ni/Se and Ne/Si. The eyelids are heavy and appear sleepy, as is normally seen in Ni. Pe is also slowed down, and the normally active eyes of Ne look more like those of Se. The expressions of Fe become more spontaneous, disorganized and asymmetrical, and it's hard to tell whether or not the tension of Fi is present. The face may be static, but it never fully neutralizes.

Video #1:



This video has two clear examples. The first is a NiFe male, the second a FeSi (or possibly NeTi) female. It's more difficult to tell with the NiFe, but you can immediately see the weight of the brow over their eyes. The brows sink down over the eyelids, amplifying the sleepy look of Ni, and forming a similar appearance in Si/Ne. The eyes often seem blank and disengaged from the environment as well, especially in the female example.

At 4:13-4:23, 5:29, 5:33, 6:22 are examples of tension and asymmetrical expression during speech. The male example has upward tension that rises from an otherwise taught and immobile upper lip. The female's mouth dips into spontaneous asymmetrical grimacing expressions, reminiscent of what might be expected in the articulation of Fi/Te.

At 5:54 is a good example of the blank, solemn stare - or flat affect - often seen. Throughout her video, we see the patient struggling in her articulation, and defaulting back to a dead-yet-disturbed expression.

At 7:06 is a very interesting signal that I saw many times in real life with my schizophrenic mother. It's a sort of self-deprecating laugh: disengaging down with a giggle which sounds distressed, almost like crying. I'm not sure if this might be a particular signal seen in emotionally disturbed FeSi (my mother was FeSi as well), but the resemblance in the video is uncanny.

Video #2:



This fellow is an interesting example. Accounting for the effects of schizophrenia, I believe he's NeTi, but his apparent vultology seems like what would be expected in a TiSe or possibly SeFi.

From the beginning of the video, at 0:11 or so, we see that his eyelids are lowered quite a bit for a Pe-lead, especially an Ne-lead. But his quick energy shows through, and it's seen that he has a fluid posture which swings back and forth following the direction of his eyes. He has a disturbed expression, with his upper lip lifted and the corners of his mouth pulled into a slight frown. He often purses his lips in concern/regret. Despite this facial tension, there is a lack of emotional affectation in his cheeks beneath his eyes, and we see a distinct Fe smile at 1:10 which fades slowly into neutralization by 1:15.

He seems to present fewer negative symptoms than the first two examples, likely because his illness is less severe. But at 1:40 his articulation does become flat, with the movement of his mouth relatively limited. He goes back and forth from seemingly normal speech to slowed, limited speech throughout the video.

At 3:19 his eyes begin to toggle in the way characteristic of Ne, but they do so beneath his sleepy eyelids, so it's somewhat hard to tell. At 3:50 he disengages down for a long period of time and shows a blank, relatively dead expression.

Footage Analysis: Depression

The signals of depression are the same as those of general sadness, as might be expected. A depressed person will have a consistently sad expression that often shows through even when they're smiling. They will tend to act slightly nervous or ashamed, and attempt to cover up their feelings while articulating. Sometimes they might smile or laugh a lot, but if you watch them their joy seems over-exerted, and their expression disingenuous.

Determining the cognitive type of people with depression - especially when it's combined with anxiety - is something I find quite challenging in a lot of cases. The emotional affectation displayed from anxiety creates a sort of faux Fi effect, so that it's hard to tell what judgement functions a person has. Depression tends to slow people down and evoke an introspective demeanor as well, which can be easily mistaken for introversion.

Video #1 (interview starts @1:02):



I believe him to be PiFe (most likely Si-lead, but his signals and energy are rather confusing). Almost immediately, at 1:05, we see the corners of his mouth down-turned into a melancholy expression which remains his default throughout the video. He presents all of the signals of depression described in the previous post, including:

1:17 - disingenuous, strained smile
1:23 - shameful/regretful expression: inward-turned lips, looks down
1:25 - disingenuous, strained smile
1:32 - disturbed expression
1:40 - pursing of lips & swallowing
1:41 - nervous, choppy speech
1:48 - pursing of lips, disturbed expression
1:50 - down-turned corners of mouth, slight frown
1:52 - slight disingenuous smile as he speaks of social struggles
2:10 - nervous, anxious shrug
2:15 - disturbed expression
2:19 - disingenuous, strained smile
2:23 - downward tension in mouth
2:31 - pursing of lips, disturbed expression
2:42 - disingenuous, strained smile
2:47 - downward tension of mouth, pause to overcome emotions
2:49 - disturbed expression
2:58 - slight frown
3:04 - slight strained smile
3:12 - shameful/regretful expression, looks down
3:16 - disingenuous smile as he speaks of failed relationship

Video #2:



This is a good example of someone who suffers from both depression and anxiety (something she talks about in the video). Her demeanor is more agitated overall than the previous example, and there is more emotion in her voice. I believe she's probably FiSe, but the presence of Fi pulling upward toward her nose doesn't cancel out the downward tension caused by the depression.

I only analyzed the first few minutes of the video (c'ause it's > 20 minutes looong), but there is a great sample of signals within that time:

0:06 - down turned corners of mouth
0:20 - disturbed expression, anxious tone of voice
0:27 - disturbed expression
0:32 - pause to overcome emotions
0:34 - strained, disingenuous articulation
0:48 - pained expression
0:50 - pursing of lips, swallowing back tears
0:55 - pained/disturbed expression
0:57 - downward tension in mouth
0:59 - anxious tone of voice
1:07 - pained expression
1:26 - pursing of lips & swallowing
1:33 - pursing of lips & swallowing
1:37 - disturbed expression
1:43 - pursing of lips & swallowing
1:46 - disturbed expression
1:50 - nervous, choppy speech
2:01 - pursing of lips & swallowing
2:02 - pained expression
2:10 - downward tension in mouth
2:17 - pained expression
2:24 - pursing of lips & swallowing
2:32 - anxious, brief laugh
2:34 - downward tension in mouth
2:36 - down-turned corners of mouth

I haven't fully digested this thread yet, but there are some things I definitely agree with.

These photos are especially telling:



I've seen that look on people before. I don't really know if they were schizophrenic, necessarily, or just chronically depressed/etc.

While initially similar, it's definitely a different signal than Ni's lowered eyelid.
Ni's eyelids can be lowered, but that lowering doesn't necessitate absence of life-force. Ni eyes can look keen, filled with subtle energy and magic:



Instead, these three look defeated, pained and disenchanted. I think this may be especially useful in determining difficult cases of Ni-vs-Ne ambiguity.

I think you're getting somewhere with this. Some of the above samples seem pretty normal to me, and I'm not sure if I'm just missing some nuance? ...but others have that extra affect to them you mentioned. And in general I do think there's information here that needs greater clarity. Keep it up! ^^

These are some good examples, Erifrail +1

It's encouraging to see people coming forward about their struggles with mental illness. I was just having a conversation the other day about the need for transparency on this topic. There's a sort of taboo that does us no favors, as ignoring the epidemic (I heard somewhere that 1 out of 4 people in the US have some form of mental illness) allows it to continue to grow.

You know, OCD is one of the things I hadn't yet analyzed in depth.. but Michael does remind me of some others I've seen who have anxiety disorders.

One of the things I've experienced with having OCD myself is this tendency to re-think and dwell on what I've said to the point where the flow of conversation is interrupted. I think I see Michael doing something similar in his videos. His communication becomes kind of awkwardly drawn-out in a nervous way. He's not necessarily surfing his worldview map in the way typical of Pi-rambling, but rather stopping to re-think the social implications of what he's just said. He often expresses this process out loud, going back and forth about whether he should have said something differently, then apologizing and adding Fe disclaimers.

I think it's quite possible that the confusion about his perception functions was caused by the expression of his anxiety. Just as depression causes the expression of sadness on the face, from what I've seen, in a lot of cases anxiety produces the expression of anxiousness/worry.

As a general emotional expression, furrowing of the brow upwards = worry/anxiety. Typing 'worry' into Google brings up these images:



Some of these look a lot like the images of Michael you've posted, as in this comparison:





This is precisely the question I'm hoping to eventually answer with the approach defined in this thread. I think, if we studied enough people with mental illness, we may be able to quantify the signals of emotional disturbance to the point where we could reliably differentiate them from the signals of cognitive type.



I really like this idea. If we can find enough cases like this, where someone posts videos of their recovery process, I think we may be able to learn the emotional signals succinctly.

Yea, I see where you're going with this.

We could say, generally, that "emotional" problems/disorders display themselves in the area around the mouth (where most emotions center around), via chronic contraction of the muscles attached to the corners of the lips.

And we could say, generally, that disorders of psychosis (disconnect-from-reality) display themselves more in the visual/ocular dimension (around the eyes and in eye tension).


something like that, maybe? (disconnecting it from specific functions, while keeping the jist)

Spot on. This seems like a subject worth looking more into for sure