A thread for discovering, grouping and expanding our understanding of FiNe vs NeFi.
NeFi-Fi Linda Liukas
^ In this one I think we see a lot of NeFi energy. Similar to other NeFi children's product makers like Micucci &O'Hara. Playful, animated, giddy, seelie.
This video shows her more in a serious place, to contrast her most bubbly side to her most calm side. I'd like to compare this video to...
NeFi-Fi Florence Welch
Liukas and Welch feel like the same shade to me, which I think is NeFi-Fi since there is sensitivity within buoyancy. Not buoyancy within sensitivity/rigidity. But I'm just opening up the question.. what do you guys see?
FiNe-Ne Regina Spektor
FiNe-Ne Aurora Aksnes
^ These two are also very similar to me. Regina feels to me (i.e. Joan Baez) like a very affected, receding Fi with seelieness and buoyancy. However, I've got a bit more doubt about Aurora now, looking at the vids of Welch and Liukas. I could see Aurora being a seelie NeFi-Fi like them. What do you guys think?
Psychology
The similarities in these samples/types are extremely high.
And the differences very few. All have a very magical, sensitive, ephemeral, whimsical, fairy-like aura.
All share appreciation for novelty, magic, the power of renewal/creation, of expression, and the like.
There is less focus on Judgment (or right-vs-wrong), and more focus on experience.
And that experience is one of emotional openness and flight.
I've been thinking more and more lately, as I observe the same people in different settings and hear accounts of their experiences, that function expression works as an adaptive mechanism. I know we've touched on this before, but it seems like it may be even more pronounced than previously thought. I think the lead function is always at least somewhat apparent, and doesn't get completely taken over by subordinate functions neither psychologically or, perhaps especially, vultologically. But the auxiliary function and the other two can come forth quite prominently in response to social expectations or other environmental factors/stress. I've seen it often where PiJe can come across nearly identical to Articulators when giving speeches, or defending their ideas in an argument, for example. And here in this thread, I think we see examples of greater degrees of integration of the aux specific to mood/setting.
Observing things from this point of view, I think we can likely expect to see adaptive function stack variation as a common phenomenon. In fact, if you will indulge this idea for a moment, I think it could even be a sign of psychological health for someone to be able to adapt in this way. Being stuck in a certain modality may be indicative of a chronic over reliance on one or two functions, and if we take the integration of all four functions as the highest state of health - literally an increase in 'functionality' which is a standard measure of psychological health - then such a bias could be considered the opposite. (That's not to say a unilateral or bilateral development is always pathological. What I mean is that it may be sub-optimal and limiting, which actually may in turn lead to a greater susceptibility to neurosis - Jung; literally a 'weakness' and 'lack of adaptiveness' in the conscious personality.)
But, to the specifics of delineation between NeFi and FiNe.. In all these videos, the leading function/energy quadrant is still apparent to me. The NeFi are still eye-centrc and have a lot more momentum and 'pep' than the FiNe. Even in her most 'Ne' moments, Aurora still strikes me as being rigid and calculative, vs the more fluid thoughts and movements of Florence Welch and Linda Liukas. It's very nuanced, but I think her Jness is apparent in her overall posture, presentation, and communication. Now, Evanna Lynch seems a bit different than I remembered her being! She does appear a bit more eye-centric than Aurora or Regina, but I've seen it where in certain moments Ji-leads will have an uprising of Pe which makes them do this. However, her energy also strikes me as being quite extroverted. I still think FiNe is more likely than NeFi, but she has a lot of Te+Ne in the mix now. In her younger videos (like this classic example), she's quite obviously Fi-lead: recessive, poised, pushing for articulation. I think, what we're seeing in her now is a higher level of extroverted function integration. It's not hard to imagine the high stakes life of professional acting drawing out her extroverted functions over time. I've seen it often that Ji-leads, especially, will resort to dependence on their aux and polar in order to gain enough stamina to operate in the world. And often, it seems that Pe and Je kind of play off of and amplify each other. This resonance in energy is likely what leads to Je+Pe or Ji+Pi types. If I had to say, I think Evanna may be FiNe-Te with a 'Pe' temperament.
I've a couple of samples which I believe fit into this thread. teatime reminded me of Sinead O'Connor, who is an interesting case. She seems quite Fi heavy in her younger years, but quite Te heavy in more recent interviews:
Even in her earlier footage, she has Ne+Te avalanching speech, Pe perk-ups, wobbly posture, P>J 'floppy' gesticulation, and Ne experimentation with appearance & gender identity. I think she's quite obviously NeFi-Fi. Later on, her voice has a raspy 'drop' to it, and her energy has become more structured as well as more unseelie. She appears almost TeSi-Ne, but her energy is still more spritely and adaptive as what I'd expect for Te-lead, so NeFi-Te seems more likely.
The second example is Vashti Bunyan, who reminds me a bit of Liza Minelli in her younger years. Unfortunately there isn't much interview footage of her! This is the best I could find, both interviews are in her older years, but she seems to have maintained the same seelie Fi+Ne energy:
She has shy/bashful introverted energy, pausing, meticulous speech, and J>P sharp gesticulation. She's more poised and reserved than Sinead, also has a lighter voice and is more Fi overall, especially compared to Sinead's later years.
From what I see of her, I'd type her as FiNe-Ne (actually, same kind of shade as Loveofreason from INTPf).
It seems FiNe can indeed be mystical in a similar way to Ni+Fi types, Vashti being a good example of this. In the first video, she shows some of her 'NF' mystical side, when she talks about her belief in how moon cycles effect the causality of life. She also sings about reincarnation in some of her songs.
Alerith , I don't normally like the fairy-type singers, but Sinead was just captivating! And her voice is powerful. She had a buildup in her songs very artists do. Adele is all Te. Or there is a lot of Se. All in your face. I think this is far more tantalizing.
Oh, and is she not Se?
Last Edit: Jul 28, 2017 17:36:24 GMT -5 by teatime
Having revisited all the FiNe samples I know of last week (>.<) a few things became much clearer and I'd like to run it by you guys.
FiNe Vultology
The entire pattern of a type also has an emergent signature not entirely reducible to the signals in isolation. For example, SeTi males appear to often have Ni-esque eyes even if they're Se-heavy. But that's part of the overall SeTi qualia, in many cases, and the amped Se eyes may not always be present. So aside from the isolated signals of the 8 functions, there are nuances (emerging from the juxtaposition of functions) that can be very helpful in identifying type. And you'll start seeing what these nuances are with repeated exposure to a type in complete form.
For the FiNe, this has a few effects I've noticed, primarily as it contrasts to its counterpart TiNe:
- Lack of stop-start signal (is not Ti/Fe) - Lack of glitchy energy (is not Ti/Fe) - Never-flattening energy (continuous) (Fi seeping)
When we evaluate types like Regina Spektor above, and Liza Minnelli, we find that while their energy is exceedingly recessive, withdrawn and private, their body is not "rigid" in the way one may anticipate from Ji-lead. This is because (especially in FiNe-Fi) when Te is lacking, Fi alone cannot give "structure" to the composure of the Fi-lead type.
This applies to FiSe as well. If we example for example FiSe Marilyn Monroe:
What we see is an energy that can be mistaken as eye-centric/fluid. But it is not so much that they are being "steered" by the eyes, they are just disarmed and not solidifying the spine.
Also, the energy of Fi-leads never completely "stops" and so it is ongoing both in its emotional radiation but also in the energetic quality it gives the body, which can be whispy and flowy in its own way; distinct from Pe. While Pe energy has bouyancy and excitation, Fi's accidental energy is sentimental, softening the contours of the body's composure.
The same can be seen in Vashti Bunyan posted by Alerith above.
~~~
What this means practically is that Fi-lead should be identified more heavily through signals of:
- Native Introversion (receding energy) - Disarming Fi Energy (i.e. unbridled, overtaking the body into that soft/feminine fluidity)
And less so by the expected Ji signals of: - Ji Momentum Halting - Ji Disengaging Down
(although when there is a mixture of Fi+Te in the person, Ji signals do emerge, which themselves are a subset of J signals)
Our new sample Sara also exemplifies this:
...having a body that's every bit as receding as one could expect from an introvert, yet slightly flowy in a way partly resembling Pe but without any of Pe's "bounce". I believe this is an Fi signal that exists in the database but hasn't been given a lot of attention called Fi-4: Unbridled Emotional Energy.
Commakaze recently helped come up with a GIF for it as such:
Yes, I think it's super important that functions not be reduced entirely. What I mean is that how they synergize it of equal importance. This is what I was talking about today concerning what Socionics misses in its intertype relations. All things can be reduced but not meaningfully.
And also, I think you are correct in your observation, that Fi isn't as rigid as Ti. My Ti-lead friends can be super rigid. I don't know any Fi leads who are like that.
I've been thinking more and more lately, as I observe the same people in different settings and hear accounts of their experiences, that function expression works as an adaptive mechanism. I know we've touched on this before, but it seems like it may be even more pronounced than previously thought. I think the lead function is always at least somewhat apparent, and doesn't get completely taken over by subordinate functions neither psychologically or, perhaps especially, vultologically. But the auxiliary function and the other two can come forth quite prominently in response to social expectations or other environmental factors/stress. I've seen it often where PiJe can come across nearly identical to Articulators when giving speeches, or defending their ideas in an argument, for example. And here in this thread, I think we see examples of greater degrees of integration of the aux specific to mood/setting.
...........
I wonder if that can happen too with NeFi-Te, same as PiJe? I become this way too, exactly as you describe when defending arguments. It's not just a bodily thing but a mind thing too. I start thinking more coldly (not in a bad way, just F isnt prominent any more) or detachedly and firmly and sharply/clearly about facts and falsehoods and errorroneous and illogical stuff. I grow bolder in a real felt sense. I've been told I seem like a completely different person. Very serious. I think in those instances I could pass for Je lead.
Hey, is Subtype as fixed as Type? I am thinking I can be in this fairy bubble discussed in this thread when I'm spiritual and then turn into a different mode entirely when I get off that path and become either very logical or toooo Ne (endless exploration). Is it possible to do what Alerith says above with all the other three non-lead functions at different times in the same individual? Too Ne would probably mean the others are completely over-shadowed. Fi is path of spiritual maturation (for me at least). Te on its own is hubris (again, in me: I am NOT by any means saying that Te=hubris! In Te leads or any other type/person who uses it for that matter). Not sure about Si. But I'm sure I get in that mode too when I'm doing trivia, memory lanes, nostalgia, establishing roots (as puffs recently explained on Discord, which by the way MothGirl , I really hope you join so we can chat in the Fi tower and I can read/listen to you on the special inner world of Fi leads).