This is an interesting topic, and I've thought about it quite a lot. I often think about people's functions when sitting on a bus etc. Anyway, I have noticed very similar issues as you Shivaree and IluvHSJ. If I end up in tension with someone, it's usually beta or alpha. (Gotta say, though, that I'm married to a beta, so there must be some attraction, too...) I've wondered if it's because my judging functions are very dominant in me, so I have more trouble understanding people with opposite judging functions. Also, as Erifrail wrote, gamma expression is easily misunderstood as really being blunt and harsh, whereas it can only be the outer expression, not the actual intention of what I want to say. From very young age on I've told people to distill my expression, because I look more aggressive than I really am. For high Fe users it can seem very unpolite. I, on the other hand, can get frustrated with the slow and/or detailed expression of betas and alphas. Also, I have sometimes trouble understanding high use of Fe, which can look as if one is using bad rhetorics or "buying" people with what seems false friendliness to me. It's been useful for me to understand these differences and grow more patient and understanding!
On the other hand, I've noticed also "substantial" differences meaning that TiFe people are often drawn to very different aspects of the world than me. Many are religious or enjoy metaphysics, poetic language and sci-fi. Or to put it this way: most of the people that I know that are religious, metaphysicians etc. are TiFe users. They approach problems in a very different way from me. I've noticed this even while reading students' essays; I feel I can tell their judging functions just by the style of their text and the choice of their subject. Ironically, my field is very TiFe oriented, and most of my colleagues are betas with a couple of alphas and a few deltas (with whom I have easiest time).
This is of course generalization, and based on my subjective experience only, so take it with a grain of salt.
@morsecode, I think high Te is a trigger for most people's nerves. It's so straightforward and hard to ignore, so one must react in some way. And that is annoying, because people don't generally speaking like to be forced into doing anything. I can get annoyed by that, too, but it might be that I have more patience for them because of my own disposition.
My husband (possibly SeTi) can be very diplomatic and innocent yet immensely stubborn. Thing is that people who are not openly blunt can be just as annoying as more straightforward ones, just in a different way and in different situations (passive-aggressive if you like). They may think there's no reason for others to be angry, because they don't DO anything, but the problem is that passiveness, indifference and indirect nastiness can press buttons just as much as more direct expressions. A vague analogy: in our culture it has been more typical for girls to be involved in indirect bullying and for boys in more direct one. Somehow that reminds me of the difference between FeTi and TeFi, or how I understand them. Both can be real pains in the arse, but in a different way.
MsLajlaa, yes, I understand what you say... and I agree that unballanced high or heavy Te users are bound to be 'personas non gratas', even for being misunderstood by others or not (or for being unaware of the existence of better ways to let themselves come accross). as Erifrail said once when explaining Te-leads (or high Te users)... he used an expression: ''jerks with a golden heart" I liked that.
I must confess that I personally (just my thoughts, anyway) don't find accurate or correct the mindset that I often see... that equates the Ti/Fe function pair to passive-aggressiveness and Fi/Te to straight-forwardness in personality. Or the one that equates the Ni/Se pair (especially high Se) with agressivity. I honestly find this a misconception in the sense that it has more to do with the projection of shadow aspects onto some personas (in Jungian terms) that evoke those traits than to actually the reality of the psyque. Ti/Fe users can be naturally very assertive - in my point of view these sort of traits are not related with the nature and role of any of the 8 functions.
Last Edit: Jan 14, 2014 12:54:57 GMT -5 by Deleted
BTW, I'd be curious to know how Gammas perceive Betas? What would you guys reproach to Betas in terms of communication style?
I wouldn't reproach betas in terms of communication style by any means. My long-term best friend when I was a child was a beta (SeTi) and many years ago I had a long-term relationship with a TiSe (I could complain now about his lame ethics and trashy value system but we never had 'communication style problems'. and by no means I would say his lame ethics is function-related, it was just his character, a personal trait). We never had any sort of 'communication problems', on the contrary. Honestly - and I know they would say the same, our 'temperaments' were similar under many shades, they were easy-going (and me too) and there was a great amount of overall daily harmony in both cases. The troubles you (and IluvHSJ) had (sorry to hear about them ^^) with gammas didn't exist in my experience with betas (or alphas). Maybe you were just unlucky or I was lucky... or both, or none of the possibilities. If the problems you've had with them are truly connected with functions (just hypothetically), maybe they could be more type-related than quadra-related, I wonder... if the Fi-lead would neutralize the troubles you had with gammas (just a hypothesis... who knows), since none of you mentioned FiSe in your history and I never had problems with the quadra you're both located. Actually, some of the people that I found unbearable were actually unballanced gammas and deltas (regarless of Fi>Te or Te>Fi) (even tough, I've also had great communication experiences with these quadras, depending on the person).
Last Edit: Jan 14, 2014 13:24:06 GMT -5 by Deleted
<abbr>Hmm, I think there may be a difference between someone actually being aggressive, passive-aggressive or straight-forward, and him or her seeming to be like that from someone else's point of view. I mean that we all tend to certain ways of expressing our thoughts and feelings, based on our innate temperament and learned manners, and we also interpret others' behavior based on these learned (cultural) dispositions and our own most natural way of communicating. How we are seen and read by others is thus a relative thing; some people see us as more and some less assertive, whereas in some situations we really are being more assertive or passive.
As CT teaches, cognitive functions are part of the way our messages come through to others, although I definitely agree that they as such are not all of the story. I've been trying to think, if the quality of judging functions really could have influence in the conflicts I have experienced, like I said previously. It's hard to say how big the effect could be, but I still tend to believe it has some influence, although I think that whether someone is Ji-, Je-, Pi- or Pe-lead has an equally important effect on the way that person communicates himself. (Added to that all learned behavior and misbehavior, and other psycho-neuro-biological influences.) I assume Ji- or Pi-leads are more likely than a Je-lead to come out as passive-aggressive or as if they want to influence the other person or pressure him or her into a decision by means of indirect communication (e.g. avoiding eye contact, leaving the situation, keeping silence) in a conflict situation, even if they actually were not intending to be that way. And a Je-lead can more easily come out as aggressive (by e.g. leaning forward, talking fast, using hands a lot, keeping eye contact), because his or her face, hands and posture look more assertive and domineering, even if he or she didn't mean to be that way.
This in mind, I feel that at least for me situations where I have tension with other people quite often are about differing ways and standards of communication, which are then at least partly affected by our cognitive functions, although there usually is also an actual "beef" included in the problem, i.e. conflicting views on some argument/situation etc. Interesting thing, and what I like to speculate about, is whether our functions make us prone to certain interests more than others, or whether that is purely a matter of some other things (family, education, culture, pure chance). It would be fun to have a study about the cognitive types of let's say pilots, football players (unofficially: lot's of betas in football!), concert pianists or web architects. Taken the studies on different brain area uses and preferences by e.g Nardi, cognitive types are likely to have some influence on what we like to do and how.
I think the functions we use definitely have at least some influence on our interests. Or at least what we're good at in the highest level. There are a lot of deltas in physics (as seen in this thread cognitivetype.boards.net/thread/169/physics-fine), particularly FiNe and NeFi. This may or may not point to whether deltas are generally more likely to be interested in physics or whether they are more likely to be better at the highest level. The reason we can't make that conclusion right now is because of the limited data we have, since we only have the types of well known/successful physicists. I think there should be a look into both the highest level and the average/lower levels of different fields, as well as over different regions since some functions are more common in certain geographical areas.
Some general things I've noticed: Actors commonly use Fe/Ti, and are commonly alpha. Though I don't think I've seen many TiNe in acting.
Physicists are commonly delta, although I haven't seen a SiTe physicist (at least in the observed physicists-the successful and/or popular ones) (also, interestingly enough, I'm SiTe and interested in physics, and might look to study it).
Talk show hosts, politicians, news anchors, and comedians are highly populated by SiTe.
I, too, see Ti/Fe users generally being more interested in philosophy.
That's all I can think of for now... Oh, and to not completely derail the discussion, I feel like my high Te usage and manner of communicating being Te leads a lot of people to not really like me.
L: I really hope there will be more research on whether and what kind of type and function correlations there are with personal interests! It's so interesting, and I can't help but speculate about them.
Yesterday I had a perfect situation for observing communication and chemistry problems, as we had a meeting at work. I have (at least) one colleague who clearly does not like me or my approach to our subject matter. I'm running out of means to cope with him, and the tension is very bothering. Anyway, he is a very clear TiFe user, probably TiNe (he's older so perception functions are harder to see but he seems alpha). Strong Ti and Fe. It is interesting that we do everything in an opposite way. I'm structure- and he's content-oriented. He most likely interprets my way of speaking (strong Te signs) as aggressive and blunt, and my desire to bring structure as drying out the content. For me, his teaching method that is strongy narrative and based on his personal charisma is dubious. I'm immune to his rhetorics and don't understand his ideas, in the same way as he's immune to my practical argumentation. We really push each other's buttons.
I consciously tried to pay attention to my expression and smile more, because when I'm e.g. listening to what others say and trying to process it, I often have a deep Ni-scowl, Se eye-lock and manic eyes, and Fi tension on mouth area, which makes me look as if I question everything that is said to me. Also, it's very hard for me to control my TeFi signs while nervous and communicating. I wonder if it's common to default into one's dominant function wheel while nervous so that P-leads start to show more perceiving and J-leads more judging functions.
EDIT: Thinking about functions more: I am generally speaking not mystical or have my head in the clouds, and I'm not likely to make up imaginative stories etc. My worldview is naturalistic and I prefer empirical evidence to rational speculation. Maybe because of these predispositions, I've had trouble understanding Ni function. However, I'm realizing now that I do have Ni, and it shows especially well in my emotional "paranoia" by which I mean my tendency to interpret other people having motives that are actually my personal emotional conceptions of a situation and my Ni scenarios based on these emotions. So, even if I'm quite strictly evidence-based with my more objective reality-concerning views, I'm very much not that with my understanding of other people and their emotions. I read to people things that my Fi and Ni (or if not them, my mind in general) construct, and I'm prone to being pessimistic, so my conceptions often end up being negative in nature.
Last Edit: Jan 18, 2014 5:15:01 GMT -5 by MsLajlaa
L: I'm running out of means to cope with him, and the tension is very bothering.
Anyway, he is a very clear TiFe user
It is interesting that we do everything in an opposite way.
I'm immune to his rhetorics and don't understand his ideas, in the same way as he's immune to my practical argumentation.
I consciously tried to pay attention to my expression and smile more
You may find some ideas from an alpha who has spent time dealing with the opposite problem useful!
EXPLAIN WHY... ALWAYS EXPLAIN WHY...
Allow me to explain why... Haha
You "do everything opposite" BUT your GOALS are the same. If you can help him understand the OUTCOME is what you are after you may have more success. Even if it is just planting the seed of an idea today, do it. It will grow into an idea tree tomorrow. Sometimes people are relutant to immediately change their "worldview", but in the face of a true WHY, its difficult to dismiss information.
Also, the narrative technique is one I use that gets ignored by non-alphas as well and it might be interesting to know what i am trying to do.... The thought is: if i can help you be in my shoes, we will agree (because EVERYONE understands the world like an alpha... Is what i used to think). It was so strange to me when others still disagreed with me. Lol however, imo its still good to consider all possibilities with an open mind. Just in case, so you may want to try to understand HIS WHY also . Even if he wont come right out and say what it is.
The problem was that i never imagined there were other ways of understanding and operating in the world. Cognitive type has been a god send.
I never met with the kind of success in communication I now enjoy until i started to explain WHY, understand other peoples why, and focus on the goal.
Thanks, @emingtonw! CT has been such an eye-opener for me, too. Even now, after I wrote that tension out, I started understanding why I was feeling defensive and threatened in yesterday's situation. I want to understand other people, because I like to get along with them. I cannot function in a bad athmosphere, so it takes me considerable amount of time to try to cope with and change the problematic situation.
I will definitely try to explain to him, as calmly as possible, why I want to do certain things how I do. And even if I don't personally relate to his way of doing things, I'm trying to stay open and let him be that way. THese issues arise, when we have to co-operate, because both have to compromise. Also, as I added to my previous comment, I have a tendency to emotional paranoia (I read it as my Fi+Ni loop), so I need to be careful with my interpretations of people. I'm often wrong or at least exaggerate. Emotionally I'm a drama queen, which is a weird contrast to my badass naturalistic worldview.
L: I really hope there will be more research on whether and what kind of type and function correlations there are with personal interests! It's so interesting, and I can't help but speculate about them.
Yesterday I had a perfect situation for observing communication and chemistry problems, as we had a meeting at work. I have (at least) one colleague who clearly does not like me or my approach to our subject matter. I'm running out of means to cope with him, and the tension is very bothering. Anyway, he is a very clear TiFe user, probably TiNe (he's older so perception functions are harder to see but he seems alpha). Strong Ti and Fe. It is interesting that we do everything in an opposite way. I'm structure- and he's content-oriented. He most likely interprets my way of speaking (strong Te signs) as aggressive and blunt, and my desire to bring structure as drying out the content. For me, his teaching method that is strongy narrative and based on his personal charisma is dubious. I'm immune to his rhetorics and don't understand his ideas, in the same way as he's immune to my practical argumentation. We really push each other's buttons.
I consciously tried to pay attention to my expression and smile more, because when I'm e.g. listening to what others say and trying to process it, I often have a deep Ni-scowl, Se eye-lock and manic eyes, and Fi tension on mouth area, which makes me look as if I question everything that is said to me. Also, it's very hard for me to control my TeFi signs while nervous and communicating. I wonder if it's common to default into one's dominant function wheel while nervous so that P-leads start to show more perceiving and J-leads more judging functions.
EDIT: Thinking about functions more: I am generally speaking not mystical or have my head in the clouds, and I'm not likely to make up imaginative stories etc. My worldview is naturalistic and I prefer empirical evidence to rational speculation. Maybe because of these predispositions, I've had trouble understanding Ni function. However, I'm realizing now that I do have Ni, and it shows especially well in my emotional "paranoia" by which I mean my tendency to interpret other people having motives that are actually my personal emotional conceptions of a situation and my Ni scenarios based on these emotions. So, even if I'm quite strictly evidence-based with my more objective reality-concerning views, I'm very much not that with my understanding of other people and their emotions. I read to people things that my Fi and Ni (or if not them, my mind in general) construct, and I'm prone to being pessimistic, so my conceptions often end up being negative in nature.
MsLajlaa Very interesting illustration that of the constrast between Te and Ti! I find it interesting too that the knowledge of CT VR gives people the unique chance to perceive things in ourselves (our signals, the way we can impact people... and people can impact us... negatively... and the interpersonal problems that can be 'solved' from this awareness) in ways that otherwise would go unnoticed maybe forever
I can't help saying that I saw an enneagram type 6 writing/speaking when I read your post.
"as if I question everything that is said to me."
"I am generally speaking not mystical" (very rarely I found an e6 that has a mystical worldview)
"I'm realizing now that I do have Ni, and it shows especially well in my emotional "paranoia" by which I mean my tendency to interpret other people having motives that are actually my personal emotional conceptions of a situation and my Ni scenarios based on these emotions." I can only picture these words coming out from a 6. ^^
"I'm prone to being pessimistic, so my conceptions often end up being negative in nature." This is plain 6 woody allen (a 6) and his films came to mind now, they also pretty much illustrate how 6s conceive things.
It's interesting that even though we share the same functions and oscillation-wheels (we are polar types), our personalities and core motivations seem to differ quite a lot. I think I could say that my worldview is what is called... 'mystical'. Although I do naturally find 'evidences', which saves me from desillusionment (because I'm unconsciously always checking my impressions via Se), in the end of the day, I don't take them too seriously, and I get the feeling that for the most part they are just confirming what I already knew and 'was feeling without being able to explain' (this sounds terrible, I know), but still I never overlook the importance of checking. maybe in CT language it is what makes me not prone to 'doubt' people's motives, I don't look for people's motives: people's motives find me sooner or later, so I relax about this... and maybe it has to do with my worldview, it is a 'trust' in the 'unrolling of the seconds' (if that makes sense in English xD), it's a trust in the wisdom of the unfolding of the events, that 'nature' always knows better than 'me' and deep inside, I am pure nature (just like everyone). I don't know to what extend this has to do with CT, maybe a non-rational holistic approach to things that would derive from an Fi/Ni mingling? And whatever happens and whatever peoples "hidden" intentions are (which are always instinctively perceived when we are 'present', feeling people - it can't escape). I kind of surrender to them (people's motifs) maybe because Se tells me "reality is sovereign, surrender to it, accept it. People are people. They are nothing more than this, and can't cause much dmage, unless the universe is in accordance. And we are able to overcome everything that happens to us." (not that I don't have self-protection. i, as much as possible, try to avoid people who I perceive as "threatening", and for internal subjective reasons, because I'm an Fi-lead xD): but it's like... "bad things happen for a reason (and to everyone) and you have no control over it, all you can do is to learn some tough lessons through it and don't cling on the illusion of past events, when past is recollected it is never reality, just a subjective impression formed by cells that aren't even part of who you are now" - so, it wouldn't make sense for me to be prone to doubt much with this worldview (and by the way, I'm not a 6, nor have it in the tritype - I have other enneagram issues xD, which are not sweeter, being a 4). It's a feeling of constant unfolding, like leaves being nonstop dragged by the wind and at the same time we are also the wind (!) (so feeble, so powerful) and the wind wants nothing... and never possesses any leaf - they co-exist... because they are supposed to. I don't know if it makes sense for the readers or even for the thread (facepalm haha). Sorry for the ramblings. Maybe these things can help us understand cognitive functions better, or maybe just understand other things, or not. maybe the worldview of one FiSe.
@morsecode: It's very interesting how different and similar FiSe and TeNi can be like! And your description makes sense to me. My mother, whom I believe is FiSe, is quite like you. She's artistic, drawn to mystical themes, emotional, more go-with-the-flow than me (yet reserved) and observant, uses a lot of figurative language, but has a Te-Se side, too. For me it seems that strong Fi, and also Ni, has similarity to Enneagram 4 themes. And oh boy, I'm very much an E6 with tritype either 614 or 612. Do we have an idea of Woody Allen's type? I love his movies, and his persona, and I believe every type 6 must relate to him at some extent.
For me it feels as if with my inward functions the more negative aspects are prominent instead of the positive ones, or that I cannot use them as constructively. Te I regard as something I have most ease in using, and as something that flows most naturally from me. Fi is prominent, too, and often feels like my strongest function due to all inward drama that is related to it. I can imagine for a FiSe Te can create similar problems. I love the feeling when TeFi flow is going on, i.e. when I feel my analytical nature supports my emotional side and vice versa, and when my NiSe creates an executable vision based on my TeFi balanced judgments. I can imagine this kind of flow, when at its best, is what can make TeNi types excellent leaders. But they need all their functions running smoothly, including Fi.
Holy Smokes THANK YOU @morsecode!!! Confirming so many assumptions I had about how Ni/Se/Fi/Te understands/operates the world!! It gives me such an appreciation for your perspective. Its a conceptualization that (more often than not) proves me quite incorrect!
1. This used to drive me CRAZY!!! I was all like "HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW?!?!?!?" lol now i understand that the Ni worldview is just another way of piecing everything together. Just another way of approaching reality. And (unfortunately) more often hits closer to the truth than I do. Its so astonishing to me when people are apparently correct about things without being able to explain why or how?!?!? Answers from nowhere?!?! The problem was until now, NO ONE COULD EXPLAIN WHY OR HOW!!! And now i get it. which leads to #2
2. You're experiencing a feeling created by a conceptual understanding and you TRUST that feeling. I am TERRIFIED to trust that feeling and operate in that world!! I believe I do still get a "feeling" similar to the one you describe (though I suspect it is a manifestation of a combination of Fe&Si and NOT Ni in myself). Within the last year I've begun to take it into consideration along side many of my own Ne/Si musings. I still cant bring myself to trust it in its own right (it just seems like it will lead me astray!!!)
3. I EXCLUSIVELY look for peoples motives. If i cant understand WHY someone is doing something... I cant understand the person. Right now I'm operating on the tentative concept that: Everyone is trying to do the right thing. If I can figure out why they think something can be defined as "the right thing" (context), I can relate to and communicate with them.
4. I will agree with you here, but i have a completely different goal. I find it VERY HARD to "be present" in the manner you describe and instinctively KNOW a persons "hidden intentions" with any degree of accuracy. Until recently, the only manner where I could get this NEEDED information (see#3) into my Ne/Ti/Si loops was with Ne guesswork. Though that is a major part of it still, the body language cues of CT have proved IMMENSELY useful. Also I have come to believe there is some merit to the concepts of "Heart Science" after studying the topic fairly extensively. The most convincing being the studies which show conscious thought/emotion can have a direct effect on magnetic fields and probability... and therefore... reality. which leads to #5 and this is the big one...
5. It seems conceivable to me that I can influence the world around me. Observations lead me to consider it possible that I have control over the events which unfold before me. ESPECIALLY those related to interactions with other living things. You cannot have an electric current without a magnetic field and a magnetic field will create an electric current. Life seems to be as much a chicken / egg scenario as anything to me. I know this seems outrageous but bad things ONLY seem to happen to me when I loose focus on the positive. One of my Gamma friends seriously thinks I'm a Wizard haha. But seriously... I'm an alpha so to me it seems at least possible he may be right?!!?