Yes, I'm certainly in a western echo-chamber here. The sample pool is quite tilted towards an English/USA demographic. That's a problem I hope can be addressed in the future with a more controlled study. I've also been generally hesitant to venture too deeply into cultures/languages foreign to me, since all the baselines are slightly different. With the help of native speakers in other languages (*wink* ) I'm sure we can expand this out!
Post by ayoungspirit on Apr 21, 2018 11:52:15 GMT -5
If so, then let me try to identify some examples in France. I do not expect a lot of people to speak the language, but one could see this as an exercise to focus on vultology rather than content. If the celebrities have done an interview in English at some point in their career, I will put it as well. As a side note, I am not fully confident in my ability to do VR, so it might need some review, even though I am trying to be careful in my estimates. Likewise, do not expect the cleanest of material compared to the OP.
Overall, as could be expected, it does not appear very different from the American standard. Most of the individuals are either politicians, from all stripes, or journalists. Surprisingly, I did not find a famous example among successful businessmen. Although, it could be a lack of knowledge on my part, as I do not mean the list to be exhaustive, far from it. In fact, limiting oneself to celebrities is in itself quite a bias, which probably says a lot about who we identify to, but not as much who we are.
A politician from the far right, with a focus on traditional values. She got a lot of responsibilities from a young age, thanks to her family lineage, but often expressed frustration to reconcile her career with motherhood. She was a guest at the CPAC (Conservative Political Action Conference) earlier this year, and expressed an interest to work in business. Her last project is to open a school for executives.
A former military, far right politician, and patriarcal leader of the FN (Front National). While he is only suspected of having conducted torture during the war on Algeria, he has later been convicted for racism, antisemitism and historical revisionism. His eloquence and headstrong temper are as infamous as his political stunts. Note that he lost his left eye to an injury.
A right-wing political commentator, specialized in education. She advocates for critical thinking and facts, and has her own small network to express her views. Her judgement is tempered by historical considerations, but during debate, she will emphasize the leading function as if a I---.
A former general during the second world war, and the first president under the current constitution. A legendary figure for the right, who lead the French Resistance, directed the reconstruction effort, and came back to power to deal with the war on Algeria. He ultimately resigned after the social revolution of May 1968. His memoirs have earned literary recognition.
Laurent Wauquiez
A right wing politician, and current party leader of LR (Les Républicains). After finishing at the very top of national exams, he rose to power through opportunistic means. He is trying to oppose the current president by cultivating a proximity with farmers and hunters from the countryside. He prides himself on being outspoken, but no one knows how much he is rehearsed.
Philippe de Villiers
A former right-wing politician, and current CEO of Le Puy du Fou, one of the biggest theme parks in Europe, which recreates historical settings. He uses this platform to popularize his traditionalist and christian views, which are very anchored in his region, by writing and directing the shows.
An alternative life coach and YouTuber, with a focus on healthy foods. His explanations are detailed and factual, at least in recent times, but tend to be disjointed and littered with metaphors. He has been criticized for his shady and profitable deals with juice extractor factories.
A left-wing politician, who came close to the presidency. Raised in a traditional family, she rose to power through hard work. She began her career by defending and publicizing family values, and had her fourth child while being minister of environment. She ran a bold campaign based on her charismatic personality, but failed due to lack of support in her own camp. Today, she has a stronger focus on ecology.
Edit : added Malika Ménard and Thierry Casasnovas.
Last Edit: May 3, 2018 7:00:16 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Do you think it could look different in a society which is not as much defined by the economy ? That certainly exceeds the reasonable frame for this study, so you would be wise to ignore the suggestion, but I cannot help but keep an eye on foreign culture, or even history. In fact, I wonder what become of the TeSi type in populations where Fe is more prevalent than Te. Maybe some members from around the world will be able to answer me.
I currently live in Africa, and one of the things I've noticed is that most African cultures value rhythm and beat, and I don't just mean in music, but in articulation. I've found that people I originally thought were Fe-lead because of being on beat are actually Te lead. I suspect 'on-beatness' flavours things a bit more than in many western countries. So far the few Te-leads that I've typed by my limited VR abilities (those with whom I've had long exposure) have been TeNi, so I can't say much about TeSi in this context. But I did want to chime in that I think a culture can have a meta-influence over Vultology. Another thing is that eye contact here is often culturally inappropriate, so people might look down and away not because of their CT but because of culture. It's fascinating. I have more observations, but didn't want to hijack this thread too much.
(Just watching those videos, are you sure she's TeSi? She seems Pe-lead to me (Se maybe?)... quite bendy. )
Thank you for your input, Kahawa , I have reworked my video examples to make the signals more clear.
If we take a look at the muscle tension around the eyes, we can quickly identify the disposition of Si (see link or link) where only the lid is taut. It manifests as a near focus, which is stressed enough to be actually visible in most pictures, in addition to the interview. Even when she looks intently at someone, her stare is dull and unfocused, especially compared to a Se lead.
Beside, most of the signals pertaining to Ne are missing. Her demeanor is lacking buoyancy, eyes toggling, parodies. She only means business. Thus, it seems to me that what you are noticing is probably the influence of subconscious Si, which is perhaps more developed in her than most of the OP examples, but not quite autonomous. Indeed, one should consider that she memorizes a lot of trivia to use during debate, as an auxiliary to Te.
Last Edit: Apr 22, 2018 18:45:10 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Hey, Auburn! I tagged you on chat but thought I'd put it here as you recently requested (to put stuff on the board). I wonder if Fr. Robert Spitzer here might qualify for Male, Seelie, TeSi I-II. The Te and Ne are very clear IMO but if you see his one on one talks/interview vids on youtube, you'll see how deeply he's involved in the prolife movement and topics on mysticism. I used to use his book/talks on prayer and can say I am acquainted with his more Fi/feminine/spiritual side but I don't know if that qualifies him for a stick!
“If every tiny flower wanted to be a rose, spring would lose its loveliness.”
[10:34 AM] Faerie: I think he is TeSi I-II [10:34 AM] Faerie: Seelie [10:35 AM] Faerie: Or Seelie TeSi I-I- [10:35 AM] Faerie: Also, has that Hobbit vibe [10:36 AM] Phibious: For Seelie [|-||] we don't have a man of that type listed, but it would put him with Martha Beck. [10:36 AM] Phibious: Big if true. [10:37 AM] Phibious: I could maybe see [|-|-] but I'm not sold on him being double extro necessarily. [10:37 AM] Faerie: True. Should tag Auburn (@auburn | TiNe (ll-l), Is this^^ a Seelie Male TeSi I-II you could use?)(edited) [10:38 AM] Faerie: Yeah true, about the double extro [10:39 AM] Faerie: I know for example how deeply involved he is in the prolilfe movement. He has vids on that as well and on mysticism. [10:39 AM] Faerie: That might indicate developed Fi 11:12 AM] Phibious: Seelie Te men seem to have a 'talking to children' demeanor, but I mean generally more caring than condescending. I get the impression they present ideas in a simple, understandable way AS a means of connecting with people. Either you need to know it and they're doing you a favor by telling you, or it's a fun exciting thing to know in it's own right, or both. So you can share a positive interpersonal experience even with what would otherwise be a random dry topic because of this framing they use. 11:57 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): @faerie - Wow, yes on TeSi l-ll Seelie for Fr. Robert Spitzer! What a find! and once again we see similar themes to Warren and Beck. He's got a very compassionate but also mystical view. Fascinating. 12:02 PM] Phibious: - same quadra outlook, plus seelie - the specific type within that quadra that would probably grind out a bunch of books and lectures Does make a lot of sense. 12:06 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): "Seelie Te men have a very particular sort of vibe" - yess. There was a bit of a paradigm shift not too many months ago where we realized that seelie/unseelie varies independently of high-Te. This has been huge and unexpected. [12:06 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): Previously, unseelie signals suggested high Te, and this lead to a few mistypings of NeFi l-l- unseelies.
At first it seems inconceivable that Richard Dawkins, of all people, has conscious Fi but it makes sense if you consider it is conscious and unseelie. Unseelie Fi, after all, is quite moralistic, disgust-prone, and defensive. Dawkins is famous for his heated disapproval of religion and he takes very personal offense to the indoctrination of children with unscientific information. Dawkins is a kind of Fi advocate here -- of a similar sort who might advocate against physical child-abuse. Dawkins considers it a form of child-abuse that defenseless minds are told what to believe, especially when it is untrue. Dawkins, unlike his other TeSi businessman counterparts, is not driven by financial gains but instead by a compounded Te-Fi agenda of truth-seeking and moralistic proclamation.
Richard Dawkins, Ayn Rand and Germaine Greer (when older) have very similar vultologies characterized by a Je-lead commanding and accentuating vultology, but also a poised and receding posture. Their head nods are exceptionally jittery and concise.
Psychological Profile:
Psychologically, what differentiates these three from other TeSi's is a very axiomatically airtight ideology which one might mistake for Ti in some areas. Ayn Rand's philosophy is not a commentary on modern politics (re: TeSi l---), but a timeless principle-based paradigm. And this is the key psychological feature that is added by the conscious presence of Fi. The TeSi l--l is concerned, much like the Ji-leads, with arriving at the "right" universal positions in respect to philosophy, morality, and logic/reason.
Ayn Rand perhaps embodies this even stronger than Richard Dawkins, developing her philosophy of objectivism. And yet just like Dawkins (and unlike Ti-leads) she comes to a sort of principle-based conclusion that the way to live one's life is to rely on nothing that isn't supported by evidence. Like Dawkins she is deeply offended when people choose to act on whims and has her own grievances with love, sentimentality and the like. The effect we see here is as though a Ti-lead had arrived at the axiomatic conclusion that materialism is the philosopher's stone. But the conclusion comes from a Te-Fi hybrid.
Like with the TeSi ll--, the TeSi l--l is somewhat ambiverted in their energy. Their Ji holds them back somewhat, while their Je pushes them forward. But unlike Ji-leads, there is no exerted push present. One does not get the sense that they're Reviser types struggling to get their words out, but instead they are Je-lead types who have natural and easy articulations/gesticulations.... that are being clamped down by heavy Ji.
Auburn , is it possible that Richard Dawkins is actually TeNi? I've been watching some videos of his, and I get quite the 'Ni-vibe' from him. His eyes seem quite amped and intense, and his brow is concentrated around the procerus muscles.
Amped eyes, locked on, zone outs, lowered bottom eye-lids
Distant focus, lateral toggling, hypnotic eyes
I'd be curious to hear your (or others') thoughts.
I have struggled with Dawkin's eyes in particular, yes... He was actually taken off from the database (due to uncertainty) for a few months once on suspicions of being TeNi, so if he was any other type it'd certainly be that. I've gone back and forth on that, and landed on TeSi again in the latest re-evaluation. I may be wrong but I can try to tentatively put forward my reasoning?
If you see in the quoted video at 0:35, and more heavily at 0:40-0:43 we see a combination of what I think is Si's concerned concentration + Ne brushstroke eye toggling. But then he likes to also accentuate his points with raise eyebrows (0:45) and in so doing create a taut area around his eyes. Je emphasis can cause this accentuation of the outer edges. We see this in example such as FeSi Dwayne Johnson:
The look of Ni/Si is rather different in Je-leads (re: conductor eyes & eyebrows) and can look "intense" around the brow because the brow is being used to "push" energy outward. This doesn't necessarily indicate Ni, since the eyes are more telling aspects than the brow. The quality of the eyes/eye-lids is more fundamental than the shape of the brow, which has some deliberation involved. But again I could be wrong. I'm gonna see how Dawkins compares to another TeNi with Charlie Sheen:
When Older: (collage of google search for "richard dawkin face")
Younger (collage of google search for "richard dawkin young")
He honestly looks right dab in the middle to me.
To me it looks like his eyes themselves are not hypnotic, but instead quite open. Usually with high-Ni, the eyes look hypnotic, whether or not the brow is / \ or \ / shaped. In Dawkin's case, we have:
- Brow (hairs) raised up
- Si slanting outer edges
- Eyes wide open (not hypnotic)
If we take away the distraction of the brow-hairs we see that his eyes actually droop on the outer edges. And also, it is more characteristic of Ne/Si eyes for the centermost part of the eye tension to be taut:
^ in Ne/Si eyes, the area around the eyes sags, but the eyes themselves are "open" and bright.
Oppositely, Ni/Se eyes (especially high-Ni) tend to be taut around the eyes, but the eyes themselves are hypnotic.
I still see Dawkins fitting the former more than the latter.
Although a dilemma arises when its' taut from start to finish.
His look has also gotten more severe as he's aged... and it looks like he's got a stronger tautness around his eyes as well as an 'openness' of the eyes themselves. That would indicate Se.
I'm not sure what to make of this. In younger videos/images he looks a bit different, but he's got darker circles around his eyes now, his cheeks have fallen, and he looks more vampiric. I think it may be due to that, but that's just my hunch.
I'm short on time atm but I'll leave this discussion open. I think nothing in his personality/career/psychology necessarily excludes either function, as he aptly fits into the Te-lead category either way.
But at face value he's more of a materialist/empiricist (T+S) I think. I'll come back to this later!
We see this in example such as FeSi Dwayne Johnson:
Good example btw. I feel like Dwayne Johnson's intense look 'falls short' a bit. He's trying the 'smoking Ni intense scowl', but it's hard to take him too seriously (maybe that's why his movie roles lack that kind of heavy seriousness). When he bunches his eyebrows like that I want to laugh and say "you're not scary!" (I actually wondered if Bryan Cranston might have this going on too.) There are some 'real' Ni types out there though that just burn holes through you.
I feel like Dwayne Johnson's intense look 'falls short' a bit.
lol, Kahawa I think you've got it sopt-on! Aub and I have talked about the same thing - he's trying so hard to be scary, but he just looks silly! t'is better when he just embraces the truth:
(d'awww look at that friendly puppy dog Alpha face XD)
I've noticed the same thing about his acting roles, and I think he knows he's more of a teddy bear than a serious fighter. He may also feel a bit like a phony, like 'I've got a tough looking physique, but I'm really a sweetie underneath!' If you've seen his Hercules movie, it really speaks directly to this. The theme is mostly about making light of the legendary heroics and strength of his character. (Maybe this is also why he ended up in pro wrestling instead of the UFC.. ya don't actually hafta hit anyone in the former >,<)
Last Edit: Jul 20, 2018 12:42:02 GMT -5 by Alerith
Do you have any II-I samples at all, or just not enough to draw a meaningful description from?
I've watched a little of Brene Brown's talks and also find her a very 'whole' individual. It's wonderful to see such a healthy human. So the psycho-evolutionary peak for each type is different, but it engenders a sense of completeness and balance? Hmmm. Had no thoughts about her type as such, but seeing her development placed in this context is really interesting. In fact, reading this thread makes me very mindful of the mistakes I make in assuming what is healthy or good for the wellbeing of others. Note to self: TeSi's are not sick FiNe's in denial... they are TeSi's and don't need to be 'cured'.
Do you have any II-I samples at all, or just not enough to draw a meaningful description from?
I've watched a little of Brene Brown's talks and also find her a very 'whole' individual. It's wonderful to see such a healthy human. So the psycho-evolutionary peak for each type is different, but it engenders a sense of completeness and balance? Hmmm. Had no thoughts about her type as such, but seeing her development placed in this context is really interesting. In fact, reading this thread makes me very mindful of the mistakes I make in assuming what is healthy or good for the wellbeing of others. Note to self: TeSi's are not sick FiNe's in denial... they are TeSi's and don't need to be 'cured'.
Lol! I think all/most Ne + Fi revisors think TeSi's (or even TeNis) need radical intervention. I was pleasantly slapped by this particular thread too and had to drop my anti-TeSi prejudices. I was attaching my encounters with one/two of them to the type itself. Then, lo and behold, this thread happened and I realized that 90% of the people I've admired/followed/read for years are TeSi! Lol. Not "NF", not "IN"s, not at all...TeSi. LOL!