Inaccuracies/Suggestions in Ti Descriptions & Parsing
Apr 29, 2018 3:23:12 GMT -5 by nymph
ayoungspirit and jelle like this
Post by nymph on Apr 29, 2018 3:23:12 GMT -5
[2:27 PM] Aniso-Heresy FeSi:
-Question, how many people who see themselves as conscious Ti actually identify as "unbiased". that seems like something a self-blind person would think.
[2:28 PM] Phibious: ^^ That's a good point.
12:52 PM] Phibious: One of the most noticeable Ti agendas is negative, "cut the bullshit".
It has an analogous operation to the negative agendas of (unseelie) Fi, that being the other Ji, there are parallels.
Complex technical theories are a relatively common thing for Ti-ers but I sort of doubt they're a core attribute.
More like, if a heavy Ti user does spend a bunch of energy on intellectualism, then that's usually the style of it they'll end up with.
There's a Ti pro fighter that corvo keeps referencing, Khabib, who has the same sort of "I hate bullshit" attitude but not at all technically/academically.
12:59 PM] Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps: to hate bullshit doesn't sound Ti to me, rather an attitude colored by J
but yeah, I do imagine pure Ti agenda to easily discard whatever doesn't add up
and it is that pure Ti agenda I'm curious of
you took the example of a Ti invested in intellectualism -> big theory agenda
what would be other examples of Ti towers...
[1:00 PM] Phibious: It depends, Fe may not endorse bullshit but handles it pretty gracefully in comparison.
[1:01 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): Ideally, both functions find a middle ground.
[1:01 PM] Phibious: Perhaps I am not stating what I am referring to in a specific enough way.
[1:02 PM] Phibious: Ideally middlegroundism is probably true.
[1:05 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): (By the way Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps , I agree on your daily routine being heavily influenced by both Ne and Fe, with a prevalence of the former, as you are more invested in research than acting)
[1:08 PM] Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps: (might be true, but I'm also heavily invested in revising the goals.. mulling on what the optimal actions and way of executing are, taking as much relevant info as I can into account)(edited)
[1:12 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): Taking as much relevant info into account sounds to me as an interplay of Pe and Pi.
[1:12 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): Even though, Ti can be readily used to curate this info.(edited)
[1:14 PM] Phibious: With towers I think it's just an outgrowth of really wanting everything to make sense and not contradict.
I suspect only if the Ti user has at least a partial academic bent and tries to include everything for explanation do you get the classic tower.
I wouldn't assume that a Ti user who gets really into skateboarding necessarily has a big complicated mental tower of skateboarding.
There is also in Ti a positive agenda towards harmony, which is again common to both Ji.
Fi harmony seems much more oriented towards bringing the self into meaningful attunement with important things or vice versa.
Ti devalues and minimizes personal investment, so that moving of personal investment to match meaningful things or vice versa is not as relevant.
However, Ti tends to strongly prefer that the things it deals with have a sort of logical/aesthetic/functional harmony with themselves.
[1:16 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): In the end, it is quite difficult to imagine a strictly Ti agenda, as it would be very radical in its selectiveness.
[1:16 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): Such agenda would see only one course, one model to follow, if none at all.
[1:19 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): In my daily routine, I envision this as the moment where I clear my thought, and do nothing for a while.
[1:30 PM] Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps: I'm actually watching interviews with Tony Hawk now to have a look at his possible tower lols
[1:33 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): What you will see is probably the remnant of Se-Ni-Fe, as Ti is more of a negative space.
[1:33 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): The tower is what is left when Ti has finished deconstructing everything else.
[1:35 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): For a prevalent Ti type, it can look very restricted, while for a Pe type, the new content is always overloading Ti.(edited)
[2:14 PM] Phibious: At the risk of muddying up the waters, I have been wondering about the "radical drive towards nothingness" aspect of Ti.
That attitude definitely does seem to have a strong Ti-association,
but I'm not fully sold on it being the best common aspect among individuals who display Ti vultology.
3:22 PM] HangryBish (Ne ?): The way I see it is that complex systems arise from simple processes. The myth of Ti is "exhaustive parsing," for information and digestion. It won't bite off more than it can chew. @iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I) @auburn | TiNe (ll-l) Alerith | TiNe-Fe (II--) Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps
[3:47 PM] Phibious:
Exhaustive Search Parsing
The basic idea of exhaustive search parsing is this: to parse a string w, generate all strings in L and see if w is among them.
Problem: L may be an infinite language.
We need two things:
A systematic approach, so that we know we haven't overlooked any strings, and
A way to stop after generating only a finite number of strings -- knowing that, if we haven't generated w by now, we never will.
Systematic approaches are easy to find. Almost any exhaustive search technique will do.
We can (almost) make the search finite by terminating every search path at the point that it generates a sentential form containing more than |w| terminals.
[3:48 PM] Phibious: There does seem to be something metaphorically related here.
5:54 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): @hangrybish (Ne ?) dat how you find essential properties
[5:55 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): where L is a mode or possible world and w is necessary
[5:56 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): good job tea
[5:56 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): does plug walk
[6:03 PM] Phibious: [possible world, contingent fact] is isomorphic to [language, string]
[6:03 PM] Phibious: good catch
6:12 PM] Phibious: I'm very interested in TeaTime's suggestion because I feel like there is an underarticulated constructive side to Ti, and the culmination of Ti as "cease all thought and die in a cave" is a lopsided expression of the function, similar to light-only bleeding martyr Fe or dark-only vengeance/seppuku Fe. I've been trying to solidify the concept and describe it.
6:15 PM] AgentBob (FeSi): are you referring to the theory-building aspect of Ti, or something else?
[6:15 PM] AgentBob (FeSi): @phibious
[6:15 PM] TBerg | NiFe-Ti (III-): Light/dark implies inherent opposites. In order to argue for a healthier paradigm, you would have to make a brand new dichotomy or make a paradigm with more dimensions
6:22 PM] HangryBish (Ne ?): I don't know much about parsing outside of linguistics, but every time I see Ti that's what I immediate think of. Plus, the functions really are the substrate of all cognitive operations. I see nothing done in language that can be done without the functions
[6:24 PM] HangryBish (Ne ?): It's like a metabolic process. If Ti is the primary process, there's preference for not leaving anything unfinished, unparsed, undigested.
[6:24 PM] HangryBish (Ne ?): Whereas Ne, in contrast, will just amass. lol
6:24 PM] Phibious:
I don't think so, one issue I have with complex semantic theory-building as a defining feature of Ti is that it doesn't seem common to an overwhelming majority of Ti users. I think it's just the style of theory you'll get if the Ti type also happens to be an intellectual/academic sort who invents extensive theories.
I don't know if it's necessary to split out light/dark Ti as a significant component of the theory, I'm just drawing an analogy to the unbalanced halves of Fe because it seems unbalanced in a similar sort of way.
[6:25 PM] Phibious:
This part is probably the part of the analogy that holds up best.
You are an analytical person who likes to study the world from a detached place, looking for the subtle distinctions that create our sense of reality. You enjoy clarifying your understanding using language, pursuing the most semantically accurate explanations of phenomena. You can be highly philosophical in your thinking and have an ability to evaluate a situation as though you were an outside observer; allowing you to view problems from a relatively unbiased angle."
[2:28 PM] Phibious: ^^ That's a good point.
12:52 PM] Phibious: One of the most noticeable Ti agendas is negative, "cut the bullshit".
It has an analogous operation to the negative agendas of (unseelie) Fi, that being the other Ji, there are parallels.
Complex technical theories are a relatively common thing for Ti-ers but I sort of doubt they're a core attribute.
More like, if a heavy Ti user does spend a bunch of energy on intellectualism, then that's usually the style of it they'll end up with.
There's a Ti pro fighter that corvo keeps referencing, Khabib, who has the same sort of "I hate bullshit" attitude but not at all technically/academically.
12:59 PM] Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps: to hate bullshit doesn't sound Ti to me, rather an attitude colored by J
but yeah, I do imagine pure Ti agenda to easily discard whatever doesn't add up
and it is that pure Ti agenda I'm curious of
you took the example of a Ti invested in intellectualism -> big theory agenda
what would be other examples of Ti towers...
[1:00 PM] Phibious: It depends, Fe may not endorse bullshit but handles it pretty gracefully in comparison.
[1:01 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): Ideally, both functions find a middle ground.
[1:01 PM] Phibious: Perhaps I am not stating what I am referring to in a specific enough way.
[1:02 PM] Phibious: Ideally middlegroundism is probably true.
[1:05 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): (By the way Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps , I agree on your daily routine being heavily influenced by both Ne and Fe, with a prevalence of the former, as you are more invested in research than acting)
[1:08 PM] Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps: (might be true, but I'm also heavily invested in revising the goals.. mulling on what the optimal actions and way of executing are, taking as much relevant info as I can into account)(edited)
[1:12 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): Taking as much relevant info into account sounds to me as an interplay of Pe and Pi.
[1:12 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): Even though, Ti can be readily used to curate this info.(edited)
[1:14 PM] Phibious: With towers I think it's just an outgrowth of really wanting everything to make sense and not contradict.
I suspect only if the Ti user has at least a partial academic bent and tries to include everything for explanation do you get the classic tower.
I wouldn't assume that a Ti user who gets really into skateboarding necessarily has a big complicated mental tower of skateboarding.
There is also in Ti a positive agenda towards harmony, which is again common to both Ji.
Fi harmony seems much more oriented towards bringing the self into meaningful attunement with important things or vice versa.
Ti devalues and minimizes personal investment, so that moving of personal investment to match meaningful things or vice versa is not as relevant.
However, Ti tends to strongly prefer that the things it deals with have a sort of logical/aesthetic/functional harmony with themselves.
[1:16 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): In the end, it is quite difficult to imagine a strictly Ti agenda, as it would be very radical in its selectiveness.
[1:16 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): Such agenda would see only one course, one model to follow, if none at all.
[1:19 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): In my daily routine, I envision this as the moment where I clear my thought, and do nothing for a while.
[1:30 PM] Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps: I'm actually watching interviews with Tony Hawk now to have a look at his possible tower lols
[1:33 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): What you will see is probably the remnant of Se-Ni-Fe, as Ti is more of a negative space.
[1:33 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): The tower is what is left when Ti has finished deconstructing everything else.
[1:35 PM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): For a prevalent Ti type, it can look very restricted, while for a Pe type, the new content is always overloading Ti.(edited)
[2:14 PM] Phibious: At the risk of muddying up the waters, I have been wondering about the "radical drive towards nothingness" aspect of Ti.
That attitude definitely does seem to have a strong Ti-association,
but I'm not fully sold on it being the best common aspect among individuals who display Ti vultology.
3:22 PM] HangryBish (Ne ?): The way I see it is that complex systems arise from simple processes. The myth of Ti is "exhaustive parsing," for information and digestion. It won't bite off more than it can chew. @iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I) @auburn | TiNe (ll-l) Alerith | TiNe-Fe (II--) Nadia | NeTi-Fe (III-), purrhaps
[3:47 PM] Phibious:
Exhaustive Search Parsing
The basic idea of exhaustive search parsing is this: to parse a string w, generate all strings in L and see if w is among them.
Problem: L may be an infinite language.
We need two things:
A systematic approach, so that we know we haven't overlooked any strings, and
A way to stop after generating only a finite number of strings -- knowing that, if we haven't generated w by now, we never will.
Systematic approaches are easy to find. Almost any exhaustive search technique will do.
We can (almost) make the search finite by terminating every search path at the point that it generates a sentential form containing more than |w| terminals.
[3:48 PM] Phibious: There does seem to be something metaphorically related here.
5:54 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): @hangrybish (Ne ?) dat how you find essential properties
[5:55 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): where L is a mode or possible world and w is necessary
[5:56 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): good job tea
[5:56 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): does plug walk
[6:03 PM] Phibious: [possible world, contingent fact] is isomorphic to [language, string]
[6:03 PM] Phibious: good catch
6:12 PM] Phibious: I'm very interested in TeaTime's suggestion because I feel like there is an underarticulated constructive side to Ti, and the culmination of Ti as "cease all thought and die in a cave" is a lopsided expression of the function, similar to light-only bleeding martyr Fe or dark-only vengeance/seppuku Fe. I've been trying to solidify the concept and describe it.
6:15 PM] AgentBob (FeSi): are you referring to the theory-building aspect of Ti, or something else?
[6:15 PM] AgentBob (FeSi): @phibious
[6:15 PM] TBerg | NiFe-Ti (III-): Light/dark implies inherent opposites. In order to argue for a healthier paradigm, you would have to make a brand new dichotomy or make a paradigm with more dimensions
6:22 PM] HangryBish (Ne ?): I don't know much about parsing outside of linguistics, but every time I see Ti that's what I immediate think of. Plus, the functions really are the substrate of all cognitive operations. I see nothing done in language that can be done without the functions
[6:24 PM] HangryBish (Ne ?): It's like a metabolic process. If Ti is the primary process, there's preference for not leaving anything unfinished, unparsed, undigested.
[6:24 PM] HangryBish (Ne ?): Whereas Ne, in contrast, will just amass. lol
6:24 PM] Phibious:
are you referring to the theory-building aspect of Ti
I don't think so, one issue I have with complex semantic theory-building as a defining feature of Ti is that it doesn't seem common to an overwhelming majority of Ti users. I think it's just the style of theory you'll get if the Ti type also happens to be an intellectual/academic sort who invents extensive theories.
Light/dark implies inherent opposites. In order to argue for a healthier paradigm, you would have to make a brand new dichotomy or make a paradigm with more dimensions
I don't know if it's necessary to split out light/dark Ti as a significant component of the theory, I'm just drawing an analogy to the unbalanced halves of Fe because it seems unbalanced in a similar sort of way.
[6:25 PM] Phibious:
If Ti is the primary process, there's preference for not leaving anything unfinished, unparsed, undigested.
This part is probably the part of the analogy that holds up best.