Post by nymph on Apr 29, 2018 5:57:43 GMT -5
[7:58 PM] Metabolic | FiΔ:
[7:59 PM] Metabolic | FiΔ: This was well written. It sent chills down my spine...
9:51 PM] Puffs: Mmkay, that’s kinda how I feel. Like there are bits that fit great but some of the other ones I have to do more mental gymnastics with in order to relate
[9:51 PM] Puffs: Like the “ancestry and genealogy” section did you relate to?
[9:51 PM] Phibious: Not really, no.
[9:52 PM] Phibious: I'd generally say I do relate to some of it but I don't relate to it significantly more than pages for functions I don't have.
[9:52 PM] Puffs: Same. Like if I get creative with a couple of the core sentiments in the section I can kinda see it but it really didn’t hit home
[9:53 PM] Puffs: Which sections did you think were best and which were not on it for you?
[9:56 PM] Phibious:
Temperance, yes.
Encyclopedia and Narrativism, yes, although the focus is different.
Collections, Genealogy, Nostalgia, no.
[9:56 PM] Puffs: (Also, while we’re on it, how do you feel about the myth of Si as presented so far? (I know the profile doesn’t have the write up for that yet) and/or what do you think the mythology of Si is?)
[9:58 PM] Phibious: ^^ I have been meaning to come up with a good answer for that in particular and don't have all the parts installed yet.
The mythologies are very helpful in defining, coagulating, and communicating an accurate general sense of a function, imho.
[10:01 PM] Puffs: Interesting. For me it probably goes
Encyclopedia yes
Nostalgia and collections yes but kinda different
Narritivism yes bet definitely different
Temperance not really, but yes in a really weird way but that could be the Ne-leadness effect.
Ancestry and genealogy not really at all unless I get creative with the sentence about seeking “an answer to the question ‘who am I?’ that is rooted in a concrete context”(edited)
[10:08 PM] Phibious: (I'm typing nonsense now)
[10:08 PM] Puffs: Yeah hahaha I didn’t understand what you meant by that
[10:09 PM] Puffs: But actually yeah how do you feel about the “who am I” portion there? Rather than the whole section, just that sentence
[10:10 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): I would like to see a more representative Si definition informed by our Si heavy folks too
[10:10 PM] SC | NeFi: i like genealogy but i see it more as a puzzle to fill than a way to create identity for myself
[10:10 PM] Phibious:
A sense of identity is ultimately what is being sought here, and and answer to “who am I?” that is rooted in a concrete context.
I think everyone does a little of this and I am probably not over the 50th percentile on it.
[10:10 PM] Puffs: Okay gotcha
[10:10 PM] Puffs: Yeah
[10:12 PM] Puffs: Genealogy is incredibly uninteresting to me. At most it’d be a passing curiosity that tells me “hey guess what? Like all of your ancestors are from Europe, who’d’ve thunk it?”
[10:12 PM] Phibious: Fun if condensed well but not more fun than other random areas of knowledge condensed well?
[10:15 PM] Puffs: If you had to make 6 categories for Si behaviorism phibs, what (broadly and roughly speaking of course) would you make the categories?
[10:16 PM] Puffs: I agree
[10:16 PM] Puffs: Encyclopedia, collection, nostalgia and narritivism to me all feel like the same process
[10:17 PM] Phibious: not prepared to name a good 6 unfortunately
10:47 PM] Phibious:
Narrativism and Dogmatism are two overly specific views of the same thing.
Si organizes knowledge in ways that rely on specific explicit models of the world to make sense.
Although it can learn multiple models and flip between them, this is done in a discrete fashion, here's the view from one, there's the view from the other.
Narrativism occurs IF the relevant model happens to be stored in narrative format. I suspect this is common for everyday life material.
Dogmatism occurs IF the Si individual in question insists on using one specific model, especially if they do not modify it well to resolve conflicting info.
[11:36 PM] kooperino (actual animal): what do you mean sensory memory
[11:36 PM] Puffs: i think his thing about sensory empathy was :100:
[11:37 PM] Puffs: let me reread the memory bit
[11:37 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Maybe that’s the gut feeling you guys have talked about? I’ve not read his post
[11:37 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): i'll see if i can gather some quotes:
[11:38 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Hm reminds me of Fae’s investigation of empathy and Fi vs Fe
[11:40 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): i remember Faerie was trying to unpack Si vs Fi since they blurred in her mind when it came to this matter
[11:41 PM] Puffs: i do like the way he describes sensation
[11:41 PM] Puffs: "That’s sort of my impression of how nostalgia works. If I were to see someone playing the original Mario Brothers, the particular combination of colors, textures and music would likely evoke a sensory experience along the lines of “this is what it felt like to be me when I was 7 or 8 years old.” I might remember other sensory/emotional experiences I had at around that time. Similarly, even if I can’t remember any specific details of what a painting I once saw looks like, I might still retain a somatic imprint of what it felt like to see the painting: i.e. the impression it left on me."
[11:42 PM] Puffs: the almost physical connection to certain things
[11:47 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): whatever it is, i think there's probably something to this.. yes a form of bodily sensory impact that is more internally resonant rather than extrinsically obvious. again like an echo, the same way Si recalls all things. but in this case, rather than recalling memory, it recalls sensation?
i've read Jung describe Si as the way outer sensation personally hits/registers to a person. So 10 Si people view the same painting but they end up almost literally seeing something different. Whereas 10 Se people register the same sensational quality from it, even if they come to orient themselves to it in 10 different ways.
[11:48 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): (but i've never been fully happy with these explanations)
[11:57 PM] Phibious:
This suggests a valuable shift in focus.
Often you read with Si that it's values that are set by past experiences and then held fixed.
I'd say it's meanings that are constructed based on experience, and there is a typical Pi viscous lag in updating, even though updating is continuous.
This resonates with me. I have some physical revulsion moments and topics that are related to specific injuries I've experienced. I'll get it as much from a very descriptive reference as I will from it actually happening to someone else. Less rational than sympathy, more like scratching a chalkboard.
I keep suggesting that Pi is not the storage of data but rather the structural arrangement process applied to the data.
If this is the case, then the structural arrangement process could easily be applied to other mental contents.
If Ni does not do this, it is may be because it is too syncretic and trend-like for this sort of item to stick out by itself
As before, explicit and deliberate framework dependence.
Or, by Auburn's clearer summary terms, Backstory/Context.
These 10 Si users each have a nuanced and customized personal interpretation system either for paintings or for stuff in general that informs their experience of the painting. There is no reason these should overlap much unless they taught each other or something.
12:12 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): @phibious i think nostalgia & collections can be grouped together and i can cut out some of the fat/fluff, and/or make it more general. I can also group Narrativism and Ancestry together, doing the same. and replace those two holes with Backstory/Context... and something like "Sensory Evocation" (?) ...to give a more rounded description of what Si provides?
12:14 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): So that would leave us with something like...
Si: Skepticism & Temperance
Si: Backstory/Context
Si: Encyclopedia
Si: Narrativism & Ancestry
Si: Nostalgia & Collections
Si: Sensory Evocation(edited)
[12:14 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): ^ right. but i think this is moving in the right direction! any improvement is better than none :3
12:19 AM] Puffs: that's an improvement
[12:21 AM] Puffs: i dunno if it's just me but i see encyclopedia, nostalgia, collection, backstory and to an extent narrativism as the same process but i dunno if that's me rolling multiple things together or a sign that the profile could be further refined
[12:22 AM] Puffs: hm no i think i'm being nitpicky
12:26 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): Si: Encyclopedia = large reservoir of miscellaneous facts/trivia accumulated passively, and waiting for an occasion for recall.
Si: Narrativism & Ancestry = an affinity for things to be woven into a past/present timeline, and for the present to be looked at as intimately interdependent with past events.
Si: Nostalgia & Collections = proclivity to hoard things, being sentimental about not letting go. also holding onto things/people in general... (grudges/pains/heartbreaks... or positive feelings/events/people too).(edited)
[12:27 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): there's some overlap (as there should be), but they seem distinct enough to me
12:28 AM] Puffs: yeah i think i'd assumed that each of those was obvious with the inclusion of any other but that's silly of me
[12:29 AM] Puffs: i just jumped straight to how i see them all working together in me and went "oh that must be how they are"
[12:29 AM] Puffs: that seems like a good list
[12:29 AM] Puffs: you can ignore me
12:33 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): your input is great @puffs ! i think my framing of the profile probably washed everything out and made them blend too much. so that's relevant. i'll keep that in mind when i go to edit it
Si Ego
Those who are closest to you may know you to be an “earthy” person. You have an appreciation for the subtle textures in life, the heartfelt investment of your energy, and for the simple joys that can be found every day when we look for them. You put yourself into your work and you have a deep appreciation for what you have come to build and nurture. You have an appreciation for the wisdom of time. Others may see you as an old soul.
If you had to pick, you’d say you’re more of a tortoise than a hare. While others are quicker and flashier, they also burn out faster, while you endure the seasons. You’ve likely seen many people in your life do things too rashly, and are often offering your advice on how people can learn to create the future they desire with a bit of patience and pacing.
You have a nostalgic sense of taste, and have a tendency to feel strong affection for familiar and symbolic places/sounds/music/sensations. You have a few secret hideaways that you keep close to you – and you like to share them with those you love. You may be a lover of the countryside, and have (or have thought about getting) a house away from the business of the city. You like to “set roots” wherever you land. You don’t feel good about being uprooted too often, and prefer to build up a place where you have the freedom to add your personal aesthetic. You may be known for your collection of knickknacks – precious rocks, coins or vintage items – and are a bit of a trivia expert or historian for the topics you enjoy the most.
Those who are closest to you may know you to be an “earthy” person. You have an appreciation for the subtle textures in life, the heartfelt investment of your energy, and for the simple joys that can be found every day when we look for them. You put yourself into your work and you have a deep appreciation for what you have come to build and nurture. You have an appreciation for the wisdom of time. Others may see you as an old soul.
If you had to pick, you’d say you’re more of a tortoise than a hare. While others are quicker and flashier, they also burn out faster, while you endure the seasons. You’ve likely seen many people in your life do things too rashly, and are often offering your advice on how people can learn to create the future they desire with a bit of patience and pacing.
You have a nostalgic sense of taste, and have a tendency to feel strong affection for familiar and symbolic places/sounds/music/sensations. You have a few secret hideaways that you keep close to you – and you like to share them with those you love. You may be a lover of the countryside, and have (or have thought about getting) a house away from the business of the city. You like to “set roots” wherever you land. You don’t feel good about being uprooted too often, and prefer to build up a place where you have the freedom to add your personal aesthetic. You may be known for your collection of knickknacks – precious rocks, coins or vintage items – and are a bit of a trivia expert or historian for the topics you enjoy the most.
[7:59 PM] Metabolic | FiΔ: This was well written. It sent chills down my spine...
9:51 PM] Puffs: Mmkay, that’s kinda how I feel. Like there are bits that fit great but some of the other ones I have to do more mental gymnastics with in order to relate
[9:51 PM] Puffs: Like the “ancestry and genealogy” section did you relate to?
[9:51 PM] Phibious: Not really, no.
[9:52 PM] Phibious: I'd generally say I do relate to some of it but I don't relate to it significantly more than pages for functions I don't have.
[9:52 PM] Puffs: Same. Like if I get creative with a couple of the core sentiments in the section I can kinda see it but it really didn’t hit home
[9:53 PM] Puffs: Which sections did you think were best and which were not on it for you?
[9:56 PM] Phibious:
Temperance, yes.
Encyclopedia and Narrativism, yes, although the focus is different.
Collections, Genealogy, Nostalgia, no.
[9:56 PM] Puffs: (Also, while we’re on it, how do you feel about the myth of Si as presented so far? (I know the profile doesn’t have the write up for that yet) and/or what do you think the mythology of Si is?)
[9:58 PM] Phibious: ^^ I have been meaning to come up with a good answer for that in particular and don't have all the parts installed yet.
The mythologies are very helpful in defining, coagulating, and communicating an accurate general sense of a function, imho.
[10:01 PM] Puffs: Interesting. For me it probably goes
Encyclopedia yes
Nostalgia and collections yes but kinda different
Narritivism yes bet definitely different
Temperance not really, but yes in a really weird way but that could be the Ne-leadness effect.
Ancestry and genealogy not really at all unless I get creative with the sentence about seeking “an answer to the question ‘who am I?’ that is rooted in a concrete context”(edited)
[10:08 PM] Phibious: (I'm typing nonsense now)
[10:08 PM] Puffs: Yeah hahaha I didn’t understand what you meant by that
[10:09 PM] Puffs: But actually yeah how do you feel about the “who am I” portion there? Rather than the whole section, just that sentence
[10:10 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): I would like to see a more representative Si definition informed by our Si heavy folks too
[10:10 PM] SC | NeFi: i like genealogy but i see it more as a puzzle to fill than a way to create identity for myself
[10:10 PM] Phibious:
A sense of identity is ultimately what is being sought here, and and answer to “who am I?” that is rooted in a concrete context.
I think everyone does a little of this and I am probably not over the 50th percentile on it.
[10:10 PM] Puffs: Okay gotcha
[10:10 PM] Puffs: Yeah
[10:12 PM] Puffs: Genealogy is incredibly uninteresting to me. At most it’d be a passing curiosity that tells me “hey guess what? Like all of your ancestors are from Europe, who’d’ve thunk it?”
[10:12 PM] Phibious: Fun if condensed well but not more fun than other random areas of knowledge condensed well?
[10:15 PM] Puffs: If you had to make 6 categories for Si behaviorism phibs, what (broadly and roughly speaking of course) would you make the categories?
[10:16 PM] Puffs: I agree
[10:16 PM] Puffs: Encyclopedia, collection, nostalgia and narritivism to me all feel like the same process
[10:17 PM] Phibious: not prepared to name a good 6 unfortunately
10:47 PM] Phibious:
Narrativism and Dogmatism are two overly specific views of the same thing.
Si organizes knowledge in ways that rely on specific explicit models of the world to make sense.
Although it can learn multiple models and flip between them, this is done in a discrete fashion, here's the view from one, there's the view from the other.
Narrativism occurs IF the relevant model happens to be stored in narrative format. I suspect this is common for everyday life material.
Dogmatism occurs IF the Si individual in question insists on using one specific model, especially if they do not modify it well to resolve conflicting info.
[11:36 PM] kooperino (actual animal): what do you mean sensory memory
[11:36 PM] Puffs: i think his thing about sensory empathy was :100:
[11:37 PM] Puffs: let me reread the memory bit
[11:37 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Maybe that’s the gut feeling you guys have talked about? I’ve not read his post
[11:37 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): i'll see if i can gather some quotes:
"what I’d call sensory memory involves feeling that the sensory reality of present has a powerful resonance with feelings & senses of the past (along the lines of what was mentioned in the section about narrativism). But whereas nostalgia seems to imply valuing the present sensory reality primarily for its quality as an echo of an (often idealized) past, I think sensory memory can involve valuing the sensory present as the continuation of a living history that began in the past."
"I suspect my experience of physical discomfort in the fingernail [pulling] example comes more from Si than from Fe. After all, the experience of watching such an event is evoking stored memories of similar sensory experiences I’ve had before. Ne sees the outward event, and immediately connects it to Si, which experiences it viscerally. Even if I haven’t had such an experience myself, my mind still creates an approximation of how I'd imagine it to feel."
"I suspect my experience of physical discomfort in the fingernail [pulling] example comes more from Si than from Fe. After all, the experience of watching such an event is evoking stored memories of similar sensory experiences I’ve had before. Ne sees the outward event, and immediately connects it to Si, which experiences it viscerally. Even if I haven’t had such an experience myself, my mind still creates an approximation of how I'd imagine it to feel."
[11:38 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Hm reminds me of Fae’s investigation of empathy and Fi vs Fe
[11:40 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): i remember Faerie was trying to unpack Si vs Fi since they blurred in her mind when it came to this matter
[11:41 PM] Puffs: i do like the way he describes sensation
[11:41 PM] Puffs: "That’s sort of my impression of how nostalgia works. If I were to see someone playing the original Mario Brothers, the particular combination of colors, textures and music would likely evoke a sensory experience along the lines of “this is what it felt like to be me when I was 7 or 8 years old.” I might remember other sensory/emotional experiences I had at around that time. Similarly, even if I can’t remember any specific details of what a painting I once saw looks like, I might still retain a somatic imprint of what it felt like to see the painting: i.e. the impression it left on me."
[11:42 PM] Puffs: the almost physical connection to certain things
[11:47 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): whatever it is, i think there's probably something to this.. yes a form of bodily sensory impact that is more internally resonant rather than extrinsically obvious. again like an echo, the same way Si recalls all things. but in this case, rather than recalling memory, it recalls sensation?
i've read Jung describe Si as the way outer sensation personally hits/registers to a person. So 10 Si people view the same painting but they end up almost literally seeing something different. Whereas 10 Se people register the same sensational quality from it, even if they come to orient themselves to it in 10 different ways.
[11:48 PM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): (but i've never been fully happy with these explanations)
[11:57 PM] Phibious:
But whereas nostalgia seems to imply valuing the present sensory reality primarily for its quality as an echo of an (often idealized) past, I think sensory memory can involve valuing the sensory present as the continuation of a living history that began in the past.
This suggests a valuable shift in focus.
Often you read with Si that it's values that are set by past experiences and then held fixed.
I'd say it's meanings that are constructed based on experience, and there is a typical Pi viscous lag in updating, even though updating is continuous.
After all, the experience of watching such an event is evoking stored memories of similar sensory experiences I’ve had before. Ne sees the outward event, and immediately connects it to Si, which experiences it viscerally. Even if I haven’t had such an experience myself, my mind still creates an approximation of how I'd imagine it to feel.
This resonates with me. I have some physical revulsion moments and topics that are related to specific injuries I've experienced. I'll get it as much from a very descriptive reference as I will from it actually happening to someone else. Less rational than sympathy, more like scratching a chalkboard.
whatever it is, i think there's probably something to this.. yes a form of bodily sensory impact that is more internally resonant rather than extrinsically obvious. again like an echo, the same way Si recalls all things. but in this case, rather than recalling memory, it recalls sensation?
I keep suggesting that Pi is not the storage of data but rather the structural arrangement process applied to the data.
If this is the case, then the structural arrangement process could easily be applied to other mental contents.
If Ni does not do this, it is may be because it is too syncretic and trend-like for this sort of item to stick out by itself
10 Si people view the same painting but they end up almost literally seeing something different. Whereas 10 Se people register the same sensational quality from it, even if they come to orient themselves to it in 10 different ways.
As before, explicit and deliberate framework dependence.
Or, by Auburn's clearer summary terms, Backstory/Context.
These 10 Si users each have a nuanced and customized personal interpretation system either for paintings or for stuff in general that informs their experience of the painting. There is no reason these should overlap much unless they taught each other or something.
12:12 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): @phibious i think nostalgia & collections can be grouped together and i can cut out some of the fat/fluff, and/or make it more general. I can also group Narrativism and Ancestry together, doing the same. and replace those two holes with Backstory/Context... and something like "Sensory Evocation" (?) ...to give a more rounded description of what Si provides?
12:14 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): So that would leave us with something like...
Si: Skepticism & Temperance
Si: Backstory/Context
Si: Encyclopedia
Si: Narrativism & Ancestry
Si: Nostalgia & Collections
Si: Sensory Evocation(edited)
[12:14 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): ^ right. but i think this is moving in the right direction! any improvement is better than none :3
12:19 AM] Puffs: that's an improvement
[12:21 AM] Puffs: i dunno if it's just me but i see encyclopedia, nostalgia, collection, backstory and to an extent narrativism as the same process but i dunno if that's me rolling multiple things together or a sign that the profile could be further refined
[12:22 AM] Puffs: hm no i think i'm being nitpicky
12:26 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): Si: Encyclopedia = large reservoir of miscellaneous facts/trivia accumulated passively, and waiting for an occasion for recall.
Si: Narrativism & Ancestry = an affinity for things to be woven into a past/present timeline, and for the present to be looked at as intimately interdependent with past events.
Si: Nostalgia & Collections = proclivity to hoard things, being sentimental about not letting go. also holding onto things/people in general... (grudges/pains/heartbreaks... or positive feelings/events/people too).(edited)
[12:27 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): there's some overlap (as there should be), but they seem distinct enough to me
12:28 AM] Puffs: yeah i think i'd assumed that each of those was obvious with the inclusion of any other but that's silly of me
[12:29 AM] Puffs: i just jumped straight to how i see them all working together in me and went "oh that must be how they are"
[12:29 AM] Puffs: that seems like a good list
[12:29 AM] Puffs: you can ignore me
12:33 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): your input is great @puffs ! i think my framing of the profile probably washed everything out and made them blend too much. so that's relevant. i'll keep that in mind when i go to edit it