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Heads up! This thread was primarily created for our vultology team in preparation for the upcoming practitioner program and requires a working understanding of the vultology code. But it's opened up here to the forum since I know there are some out there that wish to learn vultology more keenly as well.
Hello guys! This is thread #8, the halfway point and the first type of the Alpha quadrant! Now we did not have as many NeTi samples as other types so some of the more rare developments are absent for now. Nonetheless, the essential constituents of the NeTi vultology appear rather clear now, marking great improvement in our understanding of this type. I hope you enjoy!
1) The annotations (l---, ll--, lll-, llll, l--l, l-l-, l-ll, ll-l) signify function consciousness, with "l" being fully conscious and "-" being subconscious or unconscious. 2) The adaptive/directive divide is not yet the most exact. Since this is the "first pass" of actually defining this spectrum vultologically, it may refine in the future. But I hope to provide a helpful first approximation.
Here we see the NeTi l--- types which demonstrate a bit less energy than was once expected. Just as with the SeTi thread the same conflation of Pe+Je happened with the NeTi's, essentially putting the double-extroverts as the baseline. But instead, this development is very comparable to the NeFi l--- types which is great to see as it shows a strong consistency across types. Having done 3/4 of the Pe's we can reasonably say that the overall Pe-lead baseline is swaying, glide-y, restless but ultimately rather chill and easygoing. puffs , man I'm sorry to take away your Si! But you're a solid NeTi l---. And I think the introversion we felt was coming from Pi is moreso an artefact of assuming the NeTi baseline was the double extroverted variety. (thanks for letting me take that video btw, it's been really helpful having someone I know to use as a baseline to make sure things are rightly calibrated).
Clarifying l--- and l-l-
One key aspect that this development helped to clarify is the difference between l--- and l-l- (see below). The immediate differences are that l--- has less involvement of the hands in gesticulation, less yang energy, pushing and exertion. However, l--- can have hand gestures that come up occsionally too, but of a different quality. Here are a few GIFs showing what the hand gestures of l--- development look like:
^ As you can see, the gestures are always P casual hand signals, never 'hitting' with force but instead conveying a kind of ongoing movement that mirrors the ongoing nature of their thoughts. Often the hands are used as tools for modeling the size/shape of mental objects, rather than as sharp swords through which to swing their convictions.
^ And here we see l-l- to compare against. Notice how much more firmness there is in the impact, the deliberation and message. The hands are not just casually swaying but are timed according to their articulation to work as a vehicle for that emotional impact.
- Music - Comedy - Storywriting - Fantasy
I won't be able to give the most complete account of this group's psychology --or that of others in this thread-- due to the very low sample size we have. However, already we see commonalities emerge from those available. Bret McKenzie is part of a musical comedy duo called "Flight of the Conchords." Michael DiMartino is an author and producer of fantasy worlds like "Avatar: The Last Airbender" and "Rebel Genius". And Puffs is an artist, aspiring musician and storywriter with a knack for comedy as well. The common thread appears to be creative interests that revolve around narratives, interwoven with child-like themes, music and fantasy. More to say on this as our sample pool grows.
Getting footage of this guy is tough! Here we see an NeTi with flat affect. The full video where this was extracted is so revealing of how NeTi's deal with stress, how they may struggle with creativity, motivation, and life in general. I highly recommend it to anyone who'd like to see a case study of an NeTi in action: link. And also to compare/contrast with the experiences of other Ne-leads here.
What we see here is Ne-lead with Ti signals atop of that native Pe energy. There's a subtle but key difference between this development and an actual TiNe which I'd first like to describe using metaphorical language. The NeTi has their Ne energy always on standby just like a car with a warmed up engine, even if it's stopped or idling at a stoplight. By comparison Ti-leads need to start up and warm up their car, which tends to shut off if it idles too long. When the NeTi ll-- engages Ti their energetics "slow them down" and clamp them, which has an implicit native extroversion tied into the execution. They are "going under water", per se, and taking a dive inward. Inversely, Ti-leads start from that inward place and have to make a longer energetic journey out into the world.
Now to show this vultologically, here are a few GIFs:
As you can see, Ti's momentum halting happens atop of the Pe-lead native state rather than them starting at Ji. There is a lack of native Prince energy, which carries the qualia of 'royalty' marked by a poised, self-contained and elf-like demeanor. We see this in GIFs like these:
It takes a while to see the difference, but looking back and forth between these two sets of GIFs a few times starts to make the difference clearer. There is a moment with Ti-leads where time fully stops for them. For NeTi's time is suspended or moving in slow-motion instead. And the TiNe stop may only happen for a fraction of a second at a time (possibly shorter than the NeTi's slow-mo duration). It's not really about the duration of the stop itself, as much as the ability to really reach that 'full stop', if that makes sense. I hope the qualia difference is translated in these metaphors, as I'm grasping at incredible nuances here.
There's a lot of fascinating things that could be said about Mark, but for now I'll just say that he embodies many of the reductive qualities of Ti, the armchair philosopher tendency, and the whole Ti+Ne package. More on this as we get more samples.
Here we see NeTi with conscious Fe. Unlike the l--- samples, these do have a relatively strong pushing of Je forward; a projection of energy outward with force. The combination of Ne+Fe creates a continuous excitation of energy as one complements and amplifies the other. However, Fe's energy does not have the poise, restraint, command or authority that it does in a Je-lead's vultology. The key factor here is not volume of signals, as NeTi l-l- will have "more Fe" per volume than many Fe-leads, but the energy will lack that essential authority which comes from a rigidity and deliberation to each gesture. Here is a GIF to show the differences:
^ As we can see, the FeSi's have a lot more of a consistent rigid structure running beneath them, a firmness and power. The NeTi's display of Fe is erratic, uncontrolled and less commanding.
Trace Dominguez, Hank Green and Lawrence Krauss are all science communicators. Trace starred on "DNews" which became "Seeker"; a show dedicated to exploring science topics. Hank Green runs SciShow, Crash Course, and many other such projects. Lawrence Krauss isn't a youtuber but is every bit as much a lover of science and facts, and tackles questions such as the origin of the universe, theism and the need to abandon religions.
This is the analogous group to the NeFi l-l- Tech Enthusiasts, however we can see the subtle difference in their focus. While the NeFi's have a more gadget-oriented mentality, highlighting technology/engineering/innovations, the NeTi's here focus a bit more on the relationship between science/knowledge and how it shifts or updates human perception. There's a social and collective implication to the "science" where these NeTi's wish to make science a type of collective consensus, a culture and a revolution. Science has an almost poetic and humanitarian allure to NeTi's, rather than the more entrepreneurial allure we see the NeFi's exhibit. And I believe this relates directly to the difference between Ne+Fe and Ne+Te.
But of course some NeTi l-l- like Jim Carrey take the comedy role too.
This appears to be a rather homogeneous group. Lights, Imogen and Christina are all twin shades of each other. All are artists, creatives, musicians and singer-songwriters. The quality of their music also has various overlapping elements. As with some NeFi l-l- Seelie artists such as Lindsey Stirling, there's a Pop focus involved and a style that plays with colorful decor, magic and elaborate music videos. They all have a focus on love ("Jar of Hearts", "Hide and Seek") but also on the human experience and human frailty ("Only Human", "Pretend", "Quiet", "Second Go"). More to say on this group as samples come in.
As with other P(JJ) developments, this represents the maximal J energy that an NeTi can display. We see in these NeTi's moments of Ti disengagement but also Fe articulation. All three function signals are interwoven together, such as in these GIFs:
^ Pe Momentum + Ti Momentum Halting + Fe Gesticulations
She alternates between going into herself (Ti) and coming out with force (Je) and fluidity (Pe). We see here a very easy/seamless acceleration into momentum (Pe) which disqualifies her as a Ji-lead since she lacks the TiNe energetic toll that was mentioned in the ll-- post. Her posture is mostly loose in a P-lead way and her hands are P Casual Hands, but they have enough Je force to qualify as Fe conscious. It's a curious hybridization.
^ Ti Meticulous Hands + Fe Gesticulations + P Casual Hands
And again here we see her fiddle with her fingers in a very Ji manner, with a very reviser quality of Fe gesticulations... all the while coming from a natively extroverted place of energy and momentum.
First I have to say I don't necessarily think Nadia 's development is l--- at present, but the way the new database is structured every video is denoted by the modulated state exhibited at that particular 2 minute segment. This clip could not have been produced by even the most Ti-heavy NeTi. And so it's actually helpful sometimes to see people modulate down their functions, and see what they look like in their default.
Nadia is TiNe, I'm 100% certain after doing this thread. But I'd like to dedicate a moment to analyze her more closely. What she says in this video is illuminating on many levels. We see signs of J-lead discrimination in her own critical evaluation of her differences and similarities to the two groups. She is, as she says at the end, cautious. What's also curious however is that she conveys her lack of clarity in articulation as a marker against being TiNe. This sort of self-criticism is, ironically, more indicative of Ji than anything else... but it also speaks to a bit of a misconception.
The most prolific TiNe's on our forum and discord have heavy Je development (myself and Jelle, for instance). And so in part I think her self-comparison is less to TiNe and more to TiNe l--l/ll-l. And as experience has recently shown me, both with the FiNe l--- samples and other Ti-leads like Linus and Zwei, Ji-leads are not always the language-precision-machines they may appear to be. Ji, without Je, is not explicit, systemic, linguistic or technical in its manifestation. Ji by itself is more subtle, gut-like, taste-testing, artistic, symmetry-seeking and is an axiom aesthete. Ji is good at getting a sense of something being askew, inaccurate, not quite aligned or true -- but it takes participation from other functions to give that a robust explication.
In her default state, Nadia is inactive. Her comportment deflates and she doesn't have Ti clamping Ne, she has Ti settling easily into itself. Moreover in addition to the multiple obvious Ti signals of neutralization, puppeteer hands, and momentum halting, there are a few key aspects in this video that to me are definitive markers. At 1:17 "in those areas" and 1:23 "be like that" the intonation of her voice (Ti passive articulation), the Ji exerted push accompanying it and the overall delivery has an earnestness/sincerity qualia that is entirely native-state-introversion; withdrawing from the world but exerting oneself to be present in it. Lastly here is a comparison of her vultology next to a few other TiNe's to show the similarities:
Now I wish not to make any absolute commentary on Linus' subjective experience, but I am --if nothing else-- obliged by the present state of CT to interpret and categorize him as TiNe (which I also personally happen to think is right but which may be contended by others). That it to say, according to CT's present standards Linus necessarily fits into the TiNe vultology category, and were that to be wrong from a psychological perspective we would need to adjust the definitions of the signals first since CT begins with the experimental evidence. But I would like to present my case as for why that is unnecessary, given how all we know about Linus seems to support TiNe at least to me.
Notes on Linus' Anatomy vs Vultology
Linus' anatomical baseline is rather indisputably Ni/Se-like. And insofar as he's simply glancing down or to the sides without any extra strain, his eyes appear sharp and "Se". However, we know in CT not to rely on static signals but instead on dynamic indicators, and all dynamic indicators point very positively towards Ne+Si for him. If we look at any moments in which his eye area actually executes some additional layering of muscular tension, it follows the Si/Ne format of Si concerned scowling, Si slanting edges, Ne naivete, Ne brushstroke toggling. If he were Ni/Se we would expect the additional layer of tension to add Ni hypnotic eyes, Ni unimpressed, Ni intense scowling, Se head-eye parallel movements, but we don't see these signals. Instead we see a disjointed or syncopated rhythm between the head and eyes as is more characteristic of Ne, and we see all his ocular tension working against his baseline anatomy's Ni/Se-esque look.
Here are a few still shots of his muscular tension in action:
^ Si concerned concentration + Si slanting edges + Si dulled eyes
And here are a few GIFs that show the quality of his Ne toggles in action:
^ Ti Delicate Pinching + Ti Neutralization + Ne Brushstroke Toggling
Notice here how the eyes toggle gently, briefly, and with no gravity or weight to their movements. The eyes move rather freely and independently to the sides as the head pays no mind to their trajectory. More on this below.
^ Ti Delicate Pinching + Ne Brushstroke Toggling
Here we see a close-up of the eyes and how they shift between various points without ever "locking on" to any one of them, but instead brushstroking across the environment. One gets the sense that the eyes are disconnected, and "roaming."
^ Ne Spritely Energy + Ne Brushstroke Toggling
And lastly here we see the combination of two distinct Ne signals. Spritely Energy is not a signal that's been given explicit definition but was briefly noted in the book. There's a "suspended" and "floaty" quality to the movements of Ne's body which run counter to Se's "presence" and grounding. Notice midway through this GIF how he leans to his right, as if being carried/swept away with a buoyant undercurrent and leaving terrestrial grounding. The body is more gangly, less 'attached' to the context of the environment and is thus prone to gesture in ways that are irregular or unmatched to it.
And again we see this combined with the eyes toggling between multiple points without any firm fixation or commitment to any ocular direction. Overall Linus' comportment is surreal, airy and what we've sometimes called 'ghost-like.'
Psychologically I find TiNe quite easy to support, although TiSe is also possible but less so in my opinion. The nature of Linus' thoughts appear to follow the Ti+Ne "armchair philosopher" variety, which does this thing where it grabs an idea and plays with it's shape (Ne) from various angles, dissecting it's implications (Ti), it's shortcomings (Ti) and it's possible alternative shapings (Ne). He does so when discussing how to go about the problems with CT's recent metabolism discussions. It's brainstorm-y in a somewhat purely conceptual way, and prone to diverge into pathways that are philosophical "what is the function of a function?" but in a non-serious fashion.
The Ti + Se/Ni modality is less "armchair philosopher" and more along the lines of "the alchemist" where ideas are explored for how they holistically converge somewhere more ...esoteric (for lack of a better word), and one gets the sense --as the Beta type speaks-- that they have to some degree already decided on the endpoint and are just trying to get to it conceptually, rather than spin off in many directions (Ne) trying to scout for green pastures.
Speaking more anecdotally regarding my own limited exposure to Linus on Discord chat, I see a willingness to engage in the kind of concept-distortion and reality-distortion that characterizes Ne's humor style. While Se tends to push the edges of the inappropriate and finds humor/elation in pressing flirtatiously against taboos and getting a rise out of it, Ne seems to find the same satisfaction in flipping memetic or cultural expectations on their head. We see this with his "I broke CT" video, for instance, but in many other subtle ways.
Now I again don't mean to press my case for TiNe too heavily, as much as just offer my reasons for believing so. I personally believe the confusion around his eyes for so long may have already caused an interpretation of many actions as belonging to Se/Ni, but which could better be seen through a more sophisticated understanding of the Ne/Si duality if examined more closely.
y'think so? in what ways? they all seem pretty solid Ti/Fe to me. maybe it's related to their passivity?
So, without making gifs or anything, the way Puffs 'cuddles' with his leg at about 0:49 seems Fi to me (sorry if leg cuddling isn't an official signal). It seems like an Fi somatic thing, a comfort with one's own body. At 1:05 he does an Fi looking shoulder shrug, and then again at about 1:30 in what looks kind of like a seelie shoulder-head-bob series. Doesn't that kind of look Fi? Or is that something else? His voice stood out too as being on the nasal spectrum, but hard to say.
With Bret, I first noticed his voice tended toward nasal. 0:38-40 looked a bit snarly/disgusty I suppose you could call it. Fe types can do this too, but I feel like they're a bit slower and more careful about how it's coming across. It's just an impression. That section from about 0:58 to 1:10 seemed like there was a lot of mouth/nose tension, esp right at 1:03. Idk, he just seems a bit snippy and seelie to me. 1:38-1:42 he does one of those little snippy head movements.
Ozman seemed totally different to me. I got no Fi-ness from him. I wasn't sure about Michael. He seemed a little snippy and nasal too, but I didn't look too closely. His mouth looks like it's slightly going asymmetrical a lot, but it's subtle, so I'm not sure. I had a quick look at Eliza and Avril too, and I see the same things in them too, so idk....
Kahawa, I saw what you saw, but I definitely thought Fe for Puffs, and I was trying to qualify how exactly some of these little things are different from Fi. I didn't quite put my finger on it. The second guy does seem Fi. He throws me off the way Hozier does.