Kahawa - I'm gonna try to address some of these rapid-fire style. - Fi doesn't have a somatic thing, that's Se's thing. - Comfort with one's body is part of Se "presence" signal. - Shoulder shrug signals belong to both Je processes, not Fi. - But out of context this one could go towards Te, maybe. (1 point) - The signal at 1:30 is a Pe bubbling momentum signal, not a seelie-shoulder-head-bob series (never heard that before!) ;p - Bret's "not bad" face at 0:38 is more of an Fe signal.
- The smile at 1:03 looks pretty Fe to me:
- I don't see anything significant at 1:38-1:42 for Bret.
Notes: I think what you may be picking up on is Pe energy w/o Fe conscious... (or Ne + adaptive/seelie F) which appears very loose, somewhat passive and not "yang" the way Fe can be. The previous FiNe baseline was essentially NeFi ll--, so a lot of "Pe" energy was previously embedded into a lot of our concept of Fi i.e. our Fi postergirls like Regina Spektor, Aurora Aksnes & Florence Welch were Pe-leads, so maybe that imprinted on your Fi concept? If so my mistake! But we need to update it now. lol
(Fi's Umbridled Emotional Radiation signal had some elements of Pe in it, too.)
It makes sense that Ne-leads without conscious Fe appear to have this flowy, effeminate qualia.
But I think this can be decoupled quite clearly. Fi energy is rigid, in many ways, and poised. It's not bobbly, shruggy, and perky like we see in these NeTi samples and the aforementioned timestamps. None of these are aspects of Fi proper.
I hope this hypothesis makes sense? What do u think? Just trying to see things from your POV and meet somewhere in the middle. Let me know if I'm off-target though.
^ Previously listed TiNe, but is a directive NeTi to go alongside Bill Wurtz. I figured puffs might find this one interesting or relatable? Another eccentric musician; love his art approach! He's got some Ti development in there too, but is not quite at the levels of the ll-- samples we have to compare against.
Notes: I think what you may be picking up on is Pe energy w/o Fe conscious... (or Ne + adaptive/seelie F) which appears very loose, somewhat passive and not "yang" the way Fe can be.
It makes sense that Ne-leads without conscious Fe appear to have this flowy, effeminate qualia.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was wondering about, and thought maybe NeTi without conscious Ti or Fe, would come across a bit different. There's no obvious warmth or flatness or w/e....
I hope this hypothesis makes sense? What do u think? Just trying to see things from your POV and meet somewhere in the middle. Let me know if I'm off-target though.
Yeah, it does help. I still don't quite see it, but just take that as a typical 'INTP' response to not yet understanding and therefore not being able to commit fully. I know I still have a lot to learn, especially when it comes to isolating things such as Pe from Ji. Atm I still see a big (well, probably small) difference between Ozman and the others, but I can't quantify it, which makes me think I'm lacking something.
I think I see what you mean, Kahawa . Ozman looks more rigid, still, "confident", "serious", "present".... Idk why.
He's not as flowy (though his eyes do the MOST toggle dance, lol).
oooooohhhhh, i see what u guys are saying.
we have a slight misclassification of Ozman. he's Directive.
^ here he is against NeTi l--- Directive Andrew Bird, I think there's a much stronger match. And yes he doesn't have that "Fi-esque" energy because again that was probably conflated with Adaptive or Seelie energy under Ne before. (we were identifying high-Fi as high-seelie before, for instance, when high-Fi could also be very unseelie and different)
Agree, this is a much better match! I think you can hear it in his voice even (Ozzie), the more 'assertive' thing, kinda...
Oh yeah, now that we're on this thread, Auburn , I'm pretty certain Grant Gustin is NeTi I--- adaptive, vultulogy + psychology (Music, dancing, acting, comedy etc)
The first time I saw that Puff vid I thought of him. He even does those little Fi-esque facial things I think Kahawa was referring to.
I think his flowiness rivals Puff's (exceeds it?) in other interviews beyond this even...
Edit! Changed vids, but this one is clear I believe...
So how can someone whose Fe is unconscious still display adaptiveness or directiveness in their vultology? Can someone with unconscious Fi (eg SeFi I---) still be seelie/unseelie?
So how can someone whose Fe is unconscious still display adaptiveness or directiveness in their vultology? Can someone with unconscious Fi (eg SeFi I---) still be seelie/unseelie?
Yeah Kahawa , everyone has a heartitude. It's just easier to tell where it falls on the light/dark thing when Feeling (or perhaps just judgment?) is conscious. In other words, I think the heart attitude is separate from the functions, which I think is why seelie signals have been removed from Fi. (Kahawa---sorry to tag you twice, just realized now that this is what you were asking, not what I answered before.)
It's exciting to see a DV page for my conjugate type, but I was a little surprised/disappointed that none of the NeTi samples ended up having conscious Si. I've been sort of scouring around youtube to see if I can identify an NeTi |**|, but my working knowledge of vultology isn't very refined. I guess the kind of person I imagine would be someone who's into Si-ish things (history, cultural traditions, the natural world, etc.), but in a dabbling/not-so-serious sort of way. Like a musician who dabbles in different musical traditions, but never becomes too deeply invested into any one of them.
I was wondering if Paul Simon, the singer-songwriter, might be NeTi w/ conscious Si, but I sort of think he looks a bit more Delta. Although he does have very flat cheeks. He looks almost Pi-lead, but something about him seems sort of bubbling and reviserish:
Another thing I was wondering is whether you guys looked at SiFe samples in making this thread. Now that the NeTi baseline has shifted toward something less energetic, does it seem likely that any SiFe's have actually been NeTi? (i.e. along the lines of what happened w/ NiFe and SeTi).
I've been sort of wondering about Bill Nye the Science Guy. Before I was familiar with CT, I always used to think of him as an NeTi poster-child. In some videos he seems awfully bouncy and fidgety for an SiFe (although I guess I can get that way too, occasionally), and has quite a bit of spontaneous goofyness. While he clearly has some empiricist tendencies (S), he's enamored with technology, discovery and human innovation in a childlike (Ne) way. Is it possible he's an NeTi |-||? On the other hand, his eyes don't seem to toggle that much, he seems to have more of a settled, conductor energy, and his goofiness/parodies have a kind of grandpa-esque dorkiness that I tend to associate more with Polar Ne.
Oh, one more thing I was wondering about: under the older subtype system Tim Minchin was listed as NeTi-Si, along with puffs and Bret McKenzie. Is Minchin also NeTi |---?
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make things cheap. --Leonard Cohen
Paul Simon is a great find, looking at other interviews of him I'm rather confident he's SiFe, yeah. He seems SiFe l-l- in the video you posted, and SiFe ll-- in others like this one, I wonder what you think:
^ you can see the Directivity really come out at around 1:00+ when he gets into his signature snark. Adaptive/Directive really makes a difference for these Ne-leads, wow. It changes their bounciness a lot. He's the same subtype as NeTi Logic:
I do remember the old video of Tim Minchin I had showed him more NeTi l---, I think. He modulates down to l--- sometimes, depending on the format of the interview, but is Directive in both styles. Finally! I had such a hard time grasping why Tim's vultology was so different from the other NeTi's yet my gut instinct was to say he still was NeTi.
I think I might have actually found an NeTi who shows conscious Si. I've had trouble finding many good videos of him, though (a lot of the search results that come up are for the Bush-era Attorney General with the same name):
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make things cheap. --Leonard Cohen
The difference between Tim Mitchin and the rest is shocking. Mark threw me off in the same way when I first saw his video. NeTi directive males have a faux-Te or Faux-gamma vibe to me (comparable to sassy, unseelie SeFi males).
This actually clears up a few personal cases for me.