Okay, last thread I am starting for today, I swear! haha
As seen in my signature, I love Conan. Now through MBTI, I always saw Conan as a NeFi, but is this really what he is? Can this be confirmed by typing him using this method of facial/body analysis?
This is Conan when he is serious and subdued. (I wanna say that I see Ne/Si here)
Now this is Conan when he is laughing a lot. I feel like I see the Fi snarling smile.
I am SUPER interested in Conan's type! I would appreciate any help
Last Edit: Nov 17, 2013 21:50:14 GMT -5 by IluvHSJ
"I will never assert that an individual must be the type I think they are. I am human, I still have subjectivity. I also think it's possible that an individual can be aware if they have been mistyped. Therefore, when it comes down to it, the ultimate decision to accept/reject a typing should come from that person themself. For better or worse, it is ultimately up to them...or some kind of perfect brain scan. haha"
-IluvHSJ
but since I am new here, I wonder if you guys can tell me. How much does enneagram play a role in reading a person visually? Is there any role?
Because I was under the impression that Conan is a NeFi, but he isn't as emotive/zany as one would expect since he has developed his Te and Si exceptionally well due to his enneagram type (which I think is either type 3, who values a successful image or type 7, who is part of the head center) and his older age?
Almost like he is able to subconsciously subdue his NeFi expressions when he is giving an interview or working because he has developed his Si and Te so well over the years? Is that possible?
I really am intrigued by the idea of all the micro-expressions and body signals representing the functions. But I'm still unclear of how much it can give an accurate reading of the order of such functions, if enneagram type comes into play.
I might be the only one, but I think enneagram type can influence how strongly a person's functions develop (and which ones get very developed) and for a long while, I have been thinking that this could be why many people have been mistyped in MBTI.
For instance, I believe I am an ENFJ or FeNi, but because I am also a type 4w5, I appear more shy and withdrawn than what ENFJS/FeNi are to be expected. So I also wonder if people would see more Ni and Ti micro expressions in me than is to be expected since type 4w5s often withdraw and can be very analytical.
Well, this is just my thoughts on the matter. I have nothing to prove it, just my own observations and thinking over the years. I don't know if anyone on this forum believes in the enneagram either, so I apologize if what I am bringing up doesn't seem relevant to the work that is being done. Just wanted to lay out my thoughts.
Edit: But then again, I might just be in denial! haha. I really wanted him to be intuitive...but oh well...I will keep an open-mind and watch more videos and try to read more signals. I will search for more clues that Conan is SiTe. I know he does love history!
"I will never assert that an individual must be the type I think they are. I am human, I still have subjectivity. I also think it's possible that an individual can be aware if they have been mistyped. Therefore, when it comes down to it, the ultimate decision to accept/reject a typing should come from that person themself. For better or worse, it is ultimately up to them...or some kind of perfect brain scan. haha"
-IluvHSJ
How much does enneagram play a role in reading a person visually? Is there any role?
I intuitively think that the ennegram type plays a certain role in how a person experiences their four functions and especially the role within each ct the person 'plays' (also, the 'shade/flavor') but the enneagram type doesn't get in the way (dosn't make it harder) to do an effective and fast visual reading, except in some rare cases. Just an example, I do notice that Pe-leads who are 4w5s or 5w4s (which is not common but it does exist) commonly come across as Ji-leads at first in videos but an attentive reading will let us see 'Pe-lead' signals without much trouble (the more videos the better) - but there are many Pe-leads who come across at a first glance as Ji-leads for a number of reasons (inibitions and self-consicouness sometimes) and are other etypes: 3s (especially 3w4), 4w3, 6w5s, 9s, or any other enneatype+wing, actually can be a Pe-lead.
Another instance, a Te-lead type 4 still exibits Te-lead signals and will be visually correctly identified as a Te-lead by an experienced cognitive type visual reader and an in depth reading, but these guys do not come accross as the "Te-lead bulldozer freneticchophands kind of Te-lead". Te-leads 4s (and sometimes 5s) come accross as considerate, collected, humanitarian, empathetic, and highly intuitive - but that persona (that sometimes are personality traits) does not interfere in the Visual Reading results (the Te-lead cues as still there). Examples of Te-leads 4s are: TeSi Angelina Jolie (sx 4w3 - 468), TeNi Morrissey, TeNi Alan Rickman. Another example of collected and totally not bulldozer Te-lead is TeSi 5w4 Peter Gabriel.
The enneagram type (and tritype) plays a role not only in the archetypical role a CT embodies but also (and especially) on the type of shade/flavor of ct. Compare, for example, these 3 people who share the same CT but completely different enneas: FiSe Michael Jackson (so 4w3 - 479), FiSe Scarlett Johanson (sx 2w3 - 268), FiSe Amanda Seyfried (sx 9 - 925) (and even me haha as you observe me on the forum: sx/sp 4w5 - 479). Completely different shades and personalities within the same CT.
These are just my personal thoughts and observations. I hope to have answered (even if in an inconclusive way) some of your questions.
Edit: But then again, I might just be in denial! haha. I really wanted him to be intuitive...
But he is intuitive. According to CT everyone is a 'sensor' and an 'intuitor'. You wanted him to be 'intuitive' maybe because of the misconceptions and biases of myers-briggs towards 'S' types. You'll soon see that they got this point wrong.
People who have S as lead or support process can be extremely insightful and abstract and literate and brainstormy - and all other traits that are incorrectly and unfairly associated with 'N' in myers-briggs.
Talented and gifted Si-leads (they abound) can be much more fascinating (and mindblowing ) than mediocres Ne-leads (they also abound). Take David Lynch as an example. He's SiTe. ^^
Edit: But then again, I might just be in denial! haha. I really wanted him to be intuitive...
But he is intuitive. According to CT everyone is a 'sensor' and an 'intuitor'. You wanted him to be 'intuitive' maybe because of the misconceptions and biases of myers-briggs towards 'S' types. You'll soon see that they got this point wrong.
People who have S as lead or support process can be extremely insightful and abstract and literate and brainstormy - and all other traits that are incorrectly and unfairly associated with 'N' in myers-briggs.
Talented and gifted Si-leads (they abound) can be much more fascinating (and mindblowing ) than mediocres Ne-leads (they also abound). Take David Lynch as an example. He's SiTe. ^^
Ah, yeah. I did often separate the sensors vs intuitive types just from my own observations of my own quirks vs my family members (who MBTI would call sensors). I always felt different than them...in that I didn't seem as observant, detail/facts-oriented, or practical as they did when I was growing up. But then I thought Isabel Myers Briggs sort of explained that things would balance out later on as a person would grow up and develop their weaker functions and now I find that I am better able to be almost like my family. However, I do see the "stigma" that MBTI has created in that it does make one think one can never develop their weaker functions (or that the weaker functions can NEVER over-ride the dominant ones). I guess this is why I thought it was almost impossible when I learned Conan was SiTe because that would mean Ne was his, according to Myers Brigg's, "weakest" function and I thought that was the central part of his personality...
But now I guess, I need to try to see things a new way. So does CT suggest that Conan's Ne could be just as great as his Si...his dominant function? Or does he still have to exert a lot of effort to use Ne vs his Si?
Also, do you think then Conan's humor is more Si or Ne...or is it actually both in CT? When I watch him, some of his funniest jokes center around an observation he had, like pointing out an audience member's weird laughter and mocking it, which now makes it seem more Si to me. But then when I was reading through some of the CT material, it said that all Si users take information through Ne? So it is more paired than I originally thought? I don't really understand...I got to read more.
I wonder if CT suggests that a types weakest (polar) function could be as developed as their greatest function? Is that the biggest divergence from MBTI? Because of MBTI, I felt a little ashamed of my Se and Ti...thinking I would never be as good at using it as those who have it as their dominant and supporting function...but if CT stresses otherwise, then I would feel more hopeful about it.
Last Edit: Nov 18, 2013 17:59:03 GMT -5 by IluvHSJ
"I will never assert that an individual must be the type I think they are. I am human, I still have subjectivity. I also think it's possible that an individual can be aware if they have been mistyped. Therefore, when it comes down to it, the ultimate decision to accept/reject a typing should come from that person themself. For better or worse, it is ultimately up to them...or some kind of perfect brain scan. haha"
-IluvHSJ
You should definitely not consider it impossible for yourself develop logical skills just because your a "feeler" or anything like that, I think that's one of the areas where the MBTI could be extremely misleading imo.
I think how the functions stack is something we don't even completely understand right now, but yes theres some people who will use their lower functions very heavily, some people might mostly identify with Te + Ne, or Te and Fi etc.
I believe the creator of this system has talked about how some people will indentify more with their lower functions, but in such a way where it's still transmitted through or used for the purpose of the higher functions, if that makes sense.
"Ah, yeah. I did often separate the sensors vs intuitive types just from my own observations of my own quirks vs my family members (who MBTI would call sensors)."
I'll reply this very very honestly and straight-forwardly. Don't take it personaly because I'm basing myself solely on all I've been witnessing on the forum (and also in my personal experience with my family) with threads of videos about family members and their previous opinions on their relatives types (and their own types): You'll get shocked if you upload on the forum videos of your family members who you think are 'sensors' and find out that, in reality, they have Ne or Ni as lead or support process. If you do a deep search on 'type me' section of the site, you'll see the veracity of what I'm saying. And, you yourself can have Se or Si as upper process - it's possible. I was shocked for quite a while when I noticed that my 'super concrete' cousin, who is not interested in 'abstract' topics and is super practical is actually a TeNi (thanks to visual reading) and now that I have a better idea of that a real TeNi is like, I can see that she's indeed (also psychologically) one of them. Not to mention the shock when I found out that my visionary, highly inventive and original creator aunt (yes, I admire her xD), who possesses a wild imagination and is highly compassionate, sensitive, intuitive and humanistic is actually a TeSi (like Tolkien).
Many people who MBTI would call sensors actually have Ni or Ne as upper process. And many of who MBTI would call 'intuitors' actually have Si or Se as upper process. And the more you dive deep into ct visual reading (you have just arrived), the more you'll understand what I am saying.
The problem with myers briggs was not in creating a stigma, it was worse: it was in creating misconceptions.
I'll take myself as an example, but there are many forumers who could say the same:
I've ALSO (FiSe here, hi ) ALWAYS felt different from my family members in that I didn't seem as observant, detail/facts-oriented, or practical as they did when I was growing up (and still nowadays) - and it was since my childhood, not something that could be attributed to the development of my "N" process when developing the so-called 'weaker' functions. I completely suck are seeing details (I focus on the big picture. I at first always see the forest and only if I force myself to see the leaves, I'll be able to do that and it was something I had to develop), I never know where I park my car (it has been better lately cause I got really pissed off with my myself) (two times in life I thought the car had been stolen for that reason, and in one of them I almost called the police for that reason - this lack of focus on the 'concrete' aspect of reality brought serious troubles to me. I can't count the times I went to the bank without the bill I had to pay or with the wrong bill (sometimes from the previous month already paid). The times I forgot to eat, to then realize all of a sudden that I have a body and that it was starving. I am interested in metaphysical and theoretical topics instead of talking about facts, and naturally tend to communicate them in a metaphorical, abstract way (see the porpotion of mbti disaster. by the way, I type as INFP there, being N my highest score there ). All these (some painful) examples just to show you that the severe problem with myers-briggs is not exactly a matter of stigma but of wrong conceptions. They didn't (nor socionics) create their 'personality' profiles based on people who were correctly typed but on concepts (and questionnaires) that distort how the functions actually are manifested in a real person; questionnaires that aren't able to access how the psyque works, but on a forced simplistic dychotomy that doesn't correspond to the reality of how a psyque functions.
Very interesting. I actually see SiTe in Conan a lot more now after learning more of the signs. But part of me still goes back to some descriptions on mbti which says SiTe users absorb a lot of facts.Then I realized that he loves history and can recall very specific dates and figures very quickly.
But I also noticed early on all the inconsistencies about how the types behave (which I was then glad to learn the enneagram to help really clarify and adjust things). But I never knew that profiles could be soooo offf that even the so called SJs can appear very intuitive and non-practical. And that people who are intuitive are very practical and detail oriented. It is like a seismic change to learn! Lol.I need to go back to read Jung then to see what parts Isabel added that were wrong. Does this mean that as a FiSe user, it would be wrong to say you have a special bond with kids and small animals? Are those the kind of statements that are really unverified? I always use to attribute everyhing wrong with MBTI to the influence of a persons enneagram, but perhaps MBTI is wrong altogether.
I will keep trying to learn CT and see if people around me, or if I myself am mistyped.
"I will never assert that an individual must be the type I think they are. I am human, I still have subjectivity. I also think it's possible that an individual can be aware if they have been mistyped. Therefore, when it comes down to it, the ultimate decision to accept/reject a typing should come from that person themself. For better or worse, it is ultimately up to them...or some kind of perfect brain scan. haha"
-IluvHSJ
IluvHSJ, the thread below probably answers your question about to what extend ISFP profiles say something about one visually identified FiSe (it would be interesting to get many visually identifed FiSe to do the same, so we could get to a profile that REALLY describes FiSes in general). I relate very very little to what profiles based myers-briggs say about my functions combo. I would NEVER in this life existence have guessed I was an FiSe without CT VR and I have great gratitude to that. The myers-briggs profiles that get closer to who I am would be mix of the INFJ and INFP profiles.
About myers-briggs profiles being sooo OFF: based on myers-briggs misconceptions, who would have guessed that Lady Gaga, Angelina Jolie and J. R. R. Tolkien are TeSi? David Lynch SiTe... Britney Spears and Einstein both NeFi, Sigmund Freud and Amy winehouse both SeFi, Pj Harvey TiSe, ... Joseph Rasputin SeFi.... and SO many others. the list of shock is endless
Last Edit: Nov 19, 2013 20:37:26 GMT -5 by Deleted
IluvHSJ, the thread below probably answers your question about to what extend ISFP profiles say something about one visually identified FiSe (it would be interesting to get many visually identifed FiSe to do the same, so we could get to a profile that REALLY describes FiSes in general). I relate very very little to what profiles based myers-briggs say about my functions combo. I would NEVER in this life existence have guessed I was an FiSe without CT VR and I have great gratitude to that. The myers-briggs profiles that get closer to who I am would be mix of the INFJ and INFP profiles.
About myers-briggs profiles being sooo OFF: based on myers-briggs misconceptions, who would have guessed that Lady Gaga, Angelina Jolie and J. R. R. Tolkien are TeSi? David Lynch SiTe... Britney Spears and Einstein both NeFi, Sigmund Freud and Amy winehouse both SeFi, Pj Harvey TiSe, ... Joseph Rasputin SeFi.... and SO many others. the list of shock is endless
Thanks for the link and taking all the time to explain CT for me. I feel like it is getting more clear and it is really exciting!
I am trying to be open-minded about my own type, which for several years I have been testing as MBTI's ENFJ...I once scored INFJ...but I shrugged that off as a fluke. Since I always thought I had Fe, Ni, Se, Ti, I found myself admiring the other functions more and more (the Fi in particular). But after learning about CT and learning about Fi snarling smiles vs Fe smiles...I became curious as to how I look like when I smile. In all my pictures, I have a Fe kind of smile. But the more I think about it, I know that I am consciously trying to make that face. When I was a kid, all the way up to maybe like 3 years ago, I had trouble smiling in photographs. It always looked weird...like there was no effort in my smile, no joy, like my bottom teeth would only show. haha. About 2 or 3 years ago, I went online and actually had to research for myself what smiles really looked like and practiced a lot. Now I can achieve a smile that looks very Fe.
But then I tried videotaping myself now, while watching Conan, to see if I can catch a glimpse of my natural laughing smile and I do see more tension towards my nose than I thought I had and it does look a little like a snarl. My nose will crinkle on the occasions that I am laughing hard. But the thing is my smile is very wide still. I don't want to post a video of myself just yet (cuz of my own personal rule to not show myself online), but I might one day to get other people's opinion.
Yet, I am curious what is your opinion/observations about Fi vs. Fe smiles. Do Fi users typically find it harder to smile on cue? Is it only Fi users whose smile will sort of crinkle their noses? Is it also suggested to find videos of a person laughing hard to clearly see what smile they have or does that make things more harder to deduce?
"I will never assert that an individual must be the type I think they are. I am human, I still have subjectivity. I also think it's possible that an individual can be aware if they have been mistyped. Therefore, when it comes down to it, the ultimate decision to accept/reject a typing should come from that person themself. For better or worse, it is ultimately up to them...or some kind of perfect brain scan. haha"
-IluvHSJ
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Conan O'BrienNov 20, 2013 19:43:22 GMT -5 by Deleted
"Do Fi users typically find it harder to smile on cue?"
I don't find it hard but I don't often do them. It depends a bit on genetics. my snarl is VERY evident, so I don't think I could ever simulate competently Fe smiles (to the point of ever fooling a visual reader), because mine rises towards the nose very clearly (my SiTe mother has a very tricky Fi subpolar smile, on the other hand, but imo it's not exaaaactly ooonly because it's subpolar Fi (even if it can interfere), but it's just how her face is... her smile seems to rise towards the nose and the ears at he same time - which is not uncommon among females SiTes, I must say). But some Fi users have tricky snarls, many times due to genetics (it's just like some Ti users have prominent cheekbones that run in their family... that may give the wrong impression of Fi usage of the elevator/depressor anguli (a muscle that 'works' when Fi is bring used) and a closer reading soon notices the 'trick'. I sometimes in interations do some smiles that can seem 'interpresonal' and warming and also interpersonal headnods (not only because 'I'm understanding the message' but to show resonation: at those times I'm unconsciously wanting to show the peson that I'm connecting and empathizing, it's a way of adding fuel to the connetion and make the person feel accepted and validated - I believe that some heavy Fi users (even when it's not 'upper' process) eventually 'learn' to do that with time as they understand more and care a bit more for social dynamics, but deep inside it's more for Fi reasons - which seems ironic. Like, I noticed that even in the forum I sometimes play 'the host' and want to help people (and sometimes spend more time with that than I should), and that can seem Fe 'hosting', but it's actually my very heavy Fi mode - that can come accross similarly at a first unattentive glance - heavy Fi users can almost be as affected and influenced by the emotional reaction of others as collective atmosphere as they are by their own, BUT still Fi is always priority (and even not heavy Fi users can be like that. Te>Fi doesn't mean sociopathy he he. they do care, they just express this in a more practical way (with logistics, through the coat of Te) than very heavy Fi users who happen to have Fi>Te. In the same way, Fi users can unconsciously repress their Te monotone in order to keep interlocutors' attention, by learning to do a caring articulation, with ups and down in the tone (many Fi users who are teachers tend to do that, even when unconsciously).
I remember that Erifrail once said in the forum that it's easier for an Fi user to perform an Fe smile than it is for Fe users to perform Fi smiles. because Fe smiles are 'staged'.
:::
Erifrail advises us not to try to do VR of ourselves, probably because it simply doesn't work.
If you don't want to make your video public but want a VR, you can send a video for visual reading purposes through pm. I won't spend much time in the forum in the next weeks, but I'll try to find some time at least for this.
Last Edit: Nov 20, 2013 21:05:00 GMT -5 by Deleted