What you say is weird... I wonder if it's even related to CT ? When I think of my family members or friends, I don't see any pattern, I rarely meet people uninterested in food or who forgets to eat for long periods of time. My NiTe TeNi father and I are food lovers, to the point we eat even when we're not hungry, we manage to stay slim though lol My SiFe FeSi mother is more sensible but enjoys eating too, my TiSe SeFi brother too.
Maybe it is cultural, I don't know, I notice northern cultures (English speaking world, also Germanic and Scandinavian countries) seem to view food as "fuel" whereas "Latin" culture (France, Italy, Spain, etc) have a more sensual, ritualized experience with food (especially in my country France and Italy where it is glorified : it's often a topic debated with passion amongst family, strangers, colleagues etc) so even people less predisposed to love food are made regularly more aware of it ?
Last Edit: Feb 16, 2014 17:07:56 GMT -5 by peppergirl
It might not be related, or it may just not be exclusively related. There's overlap in behaviors but that doesn't mean the behaviors aren't caused by their cognitive type.
Lol, this is precisely the sort of thing that happens in other typology forums whenever behaviors are listed. People automatically say "Hey wait I do that too, but I'm ___ type". Hence my many disclaimers at the beginning. Behaviors are rarely exclusive to type, and type is not a set of behaviors - hence the shared presence of a behavior does not indicate shared type, and the absence of a behavior does not exclude type. But it is noteworthy to document how the different types manifest, so long as the manifestation/behavior isn't taken to be the definition of the type itself or a definite indicator of a type, and I was just noting one NiTe's experience.
That said! I am interested in how the types manifest and why! It's very curious to me that we here have had this lack of awareness of our appetite.
My functions are messed up... second process relatively repressed in a relatively developed adult? Have you ever seen this phenomenon in JiSes, Erifrail? I am not douting my type... I am totally sure of it... But how come I am unaware of physical reality to that point? #downinthedumps #sitandcry Is it possibly related to the fact that I am an extreme introvert? Being in my extroverted (when life demands it from me) mode is super taxing, consumes all my energy in a few minutes and I need to be all by myself again to feel alive again. (And then it 'feels better' to use my introverted processes than my extroverted processes?? Fi and Ni?). i dunno. At the same time I am beggining to think I might be Te-heavy... as I have been trying to track my voice and movements (now that I know VR). ****Edit*** When I am debating something (or simply expressing my ideas) I often avalanche speech (words come to my mouth too quickly when I am expressing thoughts. They are faster than me. And it happens often. received feedcback on how eloquent and precise in my words choice (and it is immediate/automatic. they pop up by themselves, 'autonomously') I am. Also, when I am expressing my thoughts, I gesticulate bluntly, incisive, tons of shoulder shrugs. A study case. Maybe we should split this into a new thread (creepy exemplars of ct).
Humm! ...well having the dominant process as introverted/receding/reactive, and especially when it isn't a perceptive process, can cause a reluctance to sensory intake. Fi and Ti leads generally do the least sensory "flowing"*. They halt it. I would assume that having Fi as lead (even if Se as secondary) would make one more disposed to ignore sensory flow. There is also something very interesting you noted in your biography, that you experienced an overwhelm of sensory-emotional information from people. That would make sense, and I'm curious as to whether that has formed a tendency to 'shut off' the sensory world for not wanting to be overwhelmed by it as it appears so richly in Se?
* = Flowing is something Ne/Se-leads do, where they bask in the rhythm of one new situation after another (whether abstractly (i.e. Ne) or concretely (Se)). Ni/Si leads, due to them needing to operate via the aide of Ne/Se, and being disposed to synthesize data into views of predictability, do also flow and generally operate on sensory intake, though to less degree and in limited quantities. Fe/Te-leads users have a particular relation to the 'objective' world where the circumference of their identity spans beyond them and into the environment, and into the arrangement of that environment as if it was one's self that they were arranging, so they too focus more externally. But Fi/Ti users process the information already taken in, and can in theory continue to process the same information indefinitely without need for intaking more or interacting externally.
Thanks a lot for the response, Erifrail. Yes, as a child I felt bombarded by things, not only via Se (but via Se to a great extend! especially auditory info) much more than after I turned about 14 years old (it didn't change all of a sudden, but gradually from 12 to 14 years old). It makes a lot of sense that I might have repressed a bit my Se to 'survive' - for being a hardcore HighlySensitivePerson case (can't drink coffee and most medications trigger in me quite strange reactions. Never experienced drugs cause I have always felt my reactions would be too overwhelming. I can't stand night clubs due to excess of stimulation. I had an experience related to this last year. An FiSe who is very into cinema took me to a presentation in which some DJs mesh up movie scenes with music and some psychodelic lightining images) - in an improvised movie theater. it was a 'traumatic' experience to me. I had to cover my ears with my hands and had to keep my eyes closed most of the time... till the moment I had to leave the place and send him an sms explaining everything (the sound was too loud to explain verbally). At the same time, I have always been very attuned to (and easily impressed by) the emotional atmosphere of places - the essence of the space that unite and separate objects and people... in one of my texts I call this 'impressionistic blur'. I wonder if it has to do with my tertiary [perception] process. It became stronger as I repressed my Se. There is a constant 'emotional sensual smoke' in the air in my outer world. The objects aren't my focus (I don't even notice them often, but the 'emotional', 'poetic' climate in between things. Walking on the beach in a sunny day...? i won't notice a thing or enjoy the moment... I'll be in my head in my abstract world connecting things or overanalysing myself, my interactions, my subjective world. Enjoying the moment is a challenge for me. Can you imagine how it is difficult for me to identify with mbti ISFP description? When I interact with people, my attention fluctuates and lands and fluctuates basically on the finding the basic unconscious meaning/message of what is being said.. connecting all his/her speech in terms of gist, together with the emotional core and scenarios I constantly get from people instinctively, at a root level. I won't notice what the person is wearing, the hair, anything (I wonder if it is because my Se being slave to my Fi agenda, it places NO attention on what is meaningless to me, what has no *value* to me). A study case. I must add more info to my FiSe bio.
Last Edit: May 22, 2013 22:53:22 GMT -5 by Deleted: perfeccionism
Another thing about him is that he had a bitter Fi. When someone is classed as a cruel person in his book, he completely shuts off any empathy or sympathy for them as a living entity. He'd talk to me about some of the issues he had with his extended family and how he basically considers them dead to him (all this, again, spoken in a completely monotone voice) and that he wouldn't go to their help, lend them five cents, or even look their way if he ran across them at the supermarket. The odd thing is, though, that the issues he described having with his family were issues my Fe though "those aren't so bad they can be fixed! you just gotta try! be diplomatic!" but to him, he didn't bother, and he saw things in a very raw way of just "they don't like who I am, I don't like who they are, and that's that" even if it was just after one bad experience.
One. Two. Hatred. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing. Say it again? Yeeeaah!
Seriously. Hate is a fun thing. I love playing games like that too.
But like everything else, doing things again and again becomes kind of boring. What then? Well, I turned people whom I hate into useful beings. It's fun too. And profitable as well.
My FeSi older sister has a major in Social Work and works at Child Protective Services. It was interesting to watch her grow into an adult before me. She was a straight A student, and throughout university she maintained a 4.0 GPA, or marginally below that. This wasn't because she was great at the math classes, etc, but because she felt a terrible guilt if she failed. She felt the pressure of the university teachers and would say "I got to get this done" even when she was very tired from life chores.
She likes to talk about social injustices in the system, cruelty to children, animals etc. But when she's not talking about that, she relays trivia and very Ne ideas. Suddenly she'll perk-up in an excited Ne way and say "Oh! did you know that [product] causes [cancer/etc]?" or a number of other things she read in a science article or in her college text-books (Si-stored correlations). In general she's aware that scientists are humans and prone to error, but she still makes multiple appeals to the scientific authorities and generally lives her life in accordance to those articles. Often times my conversations with her are me trying to weight the legitimacy of her trivia and claims via Ti analysis, since I don't have any better data myself.
She's a very friendly person to everyone, but she has a hostile temper underneath. She can be very bold and stand up to someone in hostility to defend her stance, although she may later have shaky legs and possibly cry at the event when it's passed. She doesn't like conflict and it make her physically ill to be in bad terms with others/the-world. She is definitely an Fe-Martyr and often gives more than what she gets back. She honors the principle of fair reciprocity, but also one of not asking of others (unless they're family).
I admire her, even though I can only stand so much time around her. In general, though, our conversations are positive because her Fe/Ti clash with my Ti/Fe and we end up talking about principles of ethics, democracy and logic. Because she is a judgment lead like me, we're both fundamentally trying to arrive at the core principles and using info/topics as examples and material to aide in that. But the conversation reaches a satisfactory end when we both agree on the ethics of a matter.
SiFe :: ..continued
My SiFe mother never has debates of this sort with me. She doesn't have carefully crafted stances, but the way she lives her life shows her positions on things. Though she'll get fatigued with me if I try to make her crystallize her views for me so I can analyze them. She too is an Fe-Martyr though she's gotten better at standing up for herself. She did, however, spend seventeen years with my father before divorcing even though she was disillusioned some two years into the marriage.
Te-leads Madonna and Lady Gaga both describe feelings of injustice and suppression of authenticity as children (Fi bitterness); Madonna due to being raised in a catholic school that was prejudice against women rights, and Gaga being bullied at school. This contributed to their desire to be anti-culture and express the full authenticity of their selves as they desired. Gaga is also a humanitarian, creating charities for children and centers. Te-lead Angelina Jolie is similar, contributing strongly to charities and adopting less fortunate infants from other countries.
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
(For some reason, I couldn't type under the above quote ^)
What you're describing isn't necessarily Te dom / Fi inferior. This is Enneagram 4 interacting with Fi in any position of the cognitive hierarchy. With the motivation of 4, Fi can hyper focus on slights, injustices, and mistreatment, then become a champion for those 'less fortunate' that Fi projects itself onto. Fi is strong, whether dominant, secondary, tertiary, or inferior - but also a good reflection of the individual. Trying to define Fi as any particular set of values, rather than the individual's values, is simply trying to define it as a miniature Fe. The distinctions come in the form of whether or not the other cognitive functions are subservient to Fi - and most importantly what the individual's motivations and values (Enneatype) urge their Fi to adopt. An Enneagram 5 Fi user has completely different motivations and values than you described above - especially if they're a Te dom. Same goes for any of the other Head or Gut Enneatypes.
While Madonna is a clear TeNi, Lady Gaga is a poster child for Fi dominance, and my opinion is that Jolie is an NiTe. Compare Angelina's Ni zone out to Madonna's direct Te gaze.
This is an example of how this Visual Reading system is very good at spotting the cognitive functions exhibited by an individual (quadras), but has issues when attempting to determine the hierarchy of those functions within the individual (specific type), due to the fact that at any moment an individual who is well developed cognitively can exhibit any of their primary functions - especially if the activity or mood calls for it. If a person's mind is operating at full capacity (such as performing in public or a televised PR interview, deliberately presenting an 'image'), we will see all of their cognitive functions manifested - dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, inferior. Only when a person is at low to moderate stress will we see their dominant function manifest the most clearly.
I bring this up because I very much like what you're doing with this system, but spotted an issue that needs tweaked. I believe the approach you are currently using should be considered identification for quadras, and then from there needs work determining final type. I would like to see this system perfected because you're off to a very good and solid start.
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2013 8:26:28 GMT -5 by The Doctor
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
Post by ayoungspirit on Jul 18, 2013 8:47:05 GMT -5
The Doctor : This is an example of how this Visual Reading system is very good at spotting the cognitive functions exhibited by an individual (quadras), but has issues when attempting to determine the hierarchy of those functions within the individual (specific type), due to the fact that at any moment an individual who is well developed cognitively can exhibit any of their primary functions - especially if the activity or mood calls for it. If a person's mind is operating at full capacity (such as performing in public or a televised PR interview, deliberately presenting an 'image'), we will see all of their cognitive functions manifested - dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, inferior. Only when a person is at low to moderate stress will we see their dominant function manifest the most clearly.
I agree with the fact that ambiguities could arise from specific activities and presentation, and that one should use the most neutral and high quality video to attempt a typing, but I think the confusion resides mostly in the eye of the viewer, his lack of experience or appropriate criteria, and not in the basic validity of the system. After all, VR still is in the development phase, and even the most experienced viewers are still proceeding with caution and registering suggestions.
In my opinion, even people who are heavy on other traits than the ones of their leading functions will present in most case a distinct aspect from the legitimate users, because when people tailor a personality, they still have to rely on all their functions and especially their own lead to cohesively implement it, especially on a considerable length of time. They want something which is comfortable and efficient, not necessarily an alienating mask which would lead them to neurosis and heavy (perhaps impossible or never complete) brain rewiring (except crazy method actors perhaps). They can change their behavior and came closer to another type of their quadra, maybe another, but their style will certainly be a bit different in the details.
CT considers that all the functions are used and manifested, not that they can be substitutes to each other in the general psyche. Nevertheless, some of these distinctions are probably yet to be identified properly and classified as theory, at least on the website and forum.
I believe the thread on Megan Follows could be interesting in this regard : link
Also, it seems that you rely heavily on enneagram principles to decide your interpretations. I think it is not really needed from me and I am not really qualified to make this statement (and the above actually), but I would like to point just for clarity that this is not part of the original CT conceptual framework or set of research tools. I do not know if a clear agreement will be reachable regarding this point of view then.
Last Edit: Aug 30, 2013 11:35:41 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Also, it seems that you rely heavily on enneagram principles to decide your interpretations, I think it is not really needed from me and I am not really qualified to make this statement (and the above actually) but I would like to point just for clarity that this is not part of the original CT conceptual framework or research tools. I do not know if a clear agreement will be reachable regarding this point of view then.
Enneagram is one of many factors that I bring to the table when 'reading' someone, because Enneagram is based on a person's motivations (quite distinct from their thought process), and will therefore taint their body language. The individual has to be considered. We're not machines. The definitions for which action means what function will never neatly apply to everyone. In order to truly see what is going on with a person, the peripheral factors have to be considered, because they will act as a filter to taint the sample.
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2013 9:23:36 GMT -5 by The Doctor
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
Post by ayoungspirit on Jul 18, 2013 9:36:19 GMT -5
The Doctor : This is one of many factors that I bring to the table when 'reading' someone. The individual has to be considered. We're not machines. The definitions for which action means what function will never neatly apply to everyone. In order to truly see what is going on with a person, the peripheral factors have to be considered, because they will act as a filter to taint the sample.
Yes, exactly, and this is the reason why it relies primarily on human interpretation and not testing, but I believe CT would precisely consider these individual factors as proper individual factors and not through another deterministic typing system like Enneagram. So I was only to say that CT theory will technically affirm that the visual cues of Lady Gaga points to an Extroverted Judging dominance (if that is the case), and that her focus on injustice could be read through it, but it mostly depends on her individual appropriation of it. Maybe it effectively relies on another principle, but not one referenced inside this visual conceptual framework, so not to be considered decisive in the preliminary reading. This way, it will be difficult for a CT purist to agree with your argument, even if it could be cohesive if we were to consider it through the enneagram conceptual framework.
Last Edit: Aug 30, 2013 11:39:51 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Regarding hierarchical order, yes, CT does start with functions as being the main point, and hierarchy being secondary. Getting the functions right is the most important bit because that's how the rhythm of brain activity occurs.
The specifics of the ordering is something we're refining (backstage) and solidifying but it also isn't something that's as far from finished as you suggest. We're quite solid on the majority of reads, and can gauge hierarchical position most of the time using the principles we know. The only thing left to be sorted out is polar types. Polar types (i.e. TeNi & FiSe) can be the most difficult to tell apart. This is because they use the same primary oscillation (Te/Fi) with the support of the secondary oscillation (Ni/Se). The only difference is the starting-point in direction of energy flow (---> proactive, or <--- reactive). This is also why the celtic knots of these types are identical but reversed.
It is not a good practice to explain the gaps of one model using an entirely separate model. Despite Enneagram being valid/invalid CT should not need Enneagram to make sense of its more challenging reads. So for example, if there is a human who is inbetween NeFi and FiNe -- CT would need to, by its own principles, comprehend the fine distinctions at play. And/or expand in scope to account for those variations of those types.
There's no sense in calling someone an FiNe-4, and so on, as if the addendum of the e-type helps refine more specifically the individual. If there's any sense in a subtype system it would be one within the parameters of the model. In this sense Socionic's subtype systems is more akin to what would make sense. Something like FiNe-Fi.
Post by The Doctor on Jul 18, 2013 14:05:18 GMT -5
This is true, but what I quoted and replied to had very little to do with VR. It had to do with an assumption about how inferior Fi operates in personality and development.
But, since I disagree with the typing, let's analyze the VR on Lady Gaga...
Despite her highly conscious body language, and frequent adjustments to regain her 'image'... Let's analyze her when she slowly loosens up and shows how she really is. First, let's look at how infrequently she makes Te hand gestures, and how restrained they are, especially at the early parts of the interview. When she gets charged, her Te gestures start to become larger. Her Fi shows through with equal intensity as she gets more and more charged. Lots of nodding (Fi expressions of feeling one's values) both of the head and leaning forward into the subject being 'felt'. The more charged she becomes, the more she does so, and the more her face emotes into Ne and Te. However, her low energy state is pulled inward. Her feelings are her feelings, not anyone else's. Fi > Te. Her nods are not Fe pleas for empathy, confirmation of agreement. They're expressions of 'this is how *I* feel'. Her Ne is also clear as she jumps through several leaps of logic from one subject to an induction of reasoning. Her Si shines through in her sharp memory for anything that 'made her feel' Fi > Si.
What is important to note is where her energy and comfort levels are when any of her CF expressions are manifesting. Her base state is a very closed and guarded Fi. As she opens up, some Ne expressions come out in the form of head movement and 'inappropriate' or 'left field' comments. Her 'performance' is filtered through Si (remembering how to pose, posture, and express for maximum effect) and Te (asserting her Fi). She's forcing herself to present an image that isn't her true self, and the conflict looks like an FiNe-TeSi hybrid. However, the discerning factor is when each of these expressions happen. FiNe happens in all states. TeSi only happens when she's charged (adding to FiNe) or forcing herself to present the facade.
... because as a 4, her image is more important to her than her 'true self' - the irony of authenticity with 4's. They decide what is authentic based on their values, ideals, and romantic self opinions, then force themselves to present it - 'authentically'.
So yes, external factors such as motivations, timing, energy and comfort levels, must always be considered when using VR on anyone.
Edit : Erifrail, looks like we were typing at the same time, and you posted a minute before I did. ;-) I was actually replying to ayoungspirit.
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2013 14:07:27 GMT -5 by The Doctor
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
Regarding hierarchical order, yes, CT does start with functions as being the main point, and hierarchy being secondary. Getting the functions right is the most important bit because that's how the rhythm of brain activity occurs.
The specifics of the ordering is something we're refining (backstage) and solidifying but it also isn't something that's as far from finished as you suggest. We're quite solid on the majority of reads, and can gauge hierarchical position most of the time using the principles we know. The only thing left to be sorted out is polar types. Polar types (i.e. TeNi & FiSe) can be the most difficult to tell apart. This is because they use the same primary oscillation (Te/Fi) with the support of the secondary oscillation (Ni/Se). The only difference is the starting-point in direction of energy flow (---> proactive, or <--- reactive). This is also why the celtic knots of these types are identical but reversed.
It is not a good practice to explain the gaps of one model using an entirely separate model. Despite Enneagram being valid/invalid CT should not need Enneagram to make sense of its more challenging reads. So for example, if there is a human who is inbetween NeFi and FiNe -- CT would need to, by its own principles, comprehend the fine distinctions at play. And/or expand in scope to account for those variations of those types.
There's no sense in calling someone an FiNe-4, and so on, as if the addendum of the e-type helps refine more specifically the individual. If there's any sense in a subtype system it would be one within the parameters of the model. In this sense Socionic's subtype systems is more akin to what would make sense. Something like FiNe-Fi.
Will add more later!
I replied to this in the thread provided, since discussing the validity and influence of Enneatype is a bit off topic.
Also, please be aware that I'm simply adding my opinion in a thread that seems to be your personal notes and thoughts. I am assuming that you're looking for feedback, or else they'd be in another format. Take my opinions for what they are, just opinions in a greater consensus, and not a challenge meant to be disrespectful in a thread full of your personal thoughts, notes, and opinions. I am aware that my manner of presentation can seem confrontational, when it isn't meant to be. Wanted to be clear if that is the case.
Last Edit: Jul 18, 2013 14:30:17 GMT -5 by The Doctor
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
No problem. ^^ I can see the imprint of your Fe diplomatic consideration in your posts and thoughts; equally visible in your video. The way you reacted to the choreography of the film you watched. The awareness of - and the deconstruction of the intricacies of emotional dynamics. Ebb-and-flow of ethical economy. It's something of a strong pattern in Fe/Ti users. And then the conveying of the information via Ti/Fe articulation.
Although the persona of this person ( cognitivetype.boards.net/post/760 ) is one not palpable to all, due to the street style he's saturated in (i personally like him), it's another clear example of this Fe/Ti deconstruction of Fe dynamics. The tracking of currency in the emotional world, and Ti-calibration/feedback aiding in the graceful fluidity in that dynamic.
I also see you have Ti above Fe, visible in the nature of your flat cheeks and the naturally neutral energy, save for in moments of emergence/expression... ...just some passing thoughts... ..glad you're on the forum.. curious doctor.