We've come across it a few times on this forum but we haven't delved into it too much yet, so I was wondering if we could investigate it here? We have a fairly-sized Ne-lead demographic on this forum, but there's another demographic which is strong.
There are several members ( Amsterdam , ayoungspirit , Nexet , faeruss and others ) who reside, or have at some point resided, somewhere within the Ni-Ti spectrum. Visually we see a lot of both Ni and Ti but the lead process hasn't always been easy to hone-in on.
I think at least for me there seems to be a gap in knowledge when it comes to differentiating the TiSe from the NiFe....(or the potential TiNe intermediate) so I was hoping to learn from you guys if you're up for it?
I've put together some questions I'd like to ask you guys, to get things started, but feel free to mention anything you'd like or make up your own questions.
a) Without thinking in terms of type, how would you describe yourself?
b) What sort of things do you find yourself contemplating the most?
c) What are 3 habits you have that you wish to improve?
d) How would others (your family, coworkers, friends) likely describe you?
a) Without thinking in terms of type, how would you describe yourself?
Analytical, meticulous, cautious, particular, conscientiousness, detached, perfectionist, obsess over sometimes small/insignificant details, I find randomness, exaggeration and the combining of seemingly disparate things funny (like this or this), the future seems very uncertain to me yet I can guess what you're about to say before you say it...I could go on and on here...
Often struggle a great deal to express my thoughts, especially verbally or when put on the spot. It took me a long time to write/edit/re-edit this Reply, and it still doesn't say all I wanted it to...and definitely not in the ways I wanted to say it.
Other times, really excitable and enthusiastic (at least inside), especially if I'm talking about an interest of mine or have discovered a new idea or was able to interrelate existing ideas in new ways that solve problems for me or others.
My leg(s) bounce almost all day and I occasionally feel quite restless mentally and physically; unless very tired, I feel an undercurrent of restless energy most of the time.
I can get sentimental and nostalgic when coming across certain songs, pictures or forgotten objects, and enjoy relaying past experiences (and the lessons/principles involved) when my boys ask about them.
I enjoy: music a great deal and play multiple instruments, was in a couple bands, used to be a big part of my life; most sports, especially track/field (I enjoy the "individualness" of it, always refining my technique and performance), [American] football, ultimate Frisbee and disc golf; love traveling and miss the mountains and oceans (I live in the Midwest); greatly enjoy brewing coffee in multiple ways, all the prep and precision it takes for a truly great cup (I also like the enjoyment others get from it, but even more so when they appreciate the prep and precision it took); dabbled in and appreciate photography; enjoy writing and conveying ideas, although I'm crappy at it.
I feel most excited and satisfied with life when I am asked to bring about clarity and understanding to individuals and groups, that culminates in some kind of gain, efficiency, social harmony, restoration, healing, etc. - have I improved another's life and met a true need of theirs by bringing my knowledge/expertise/analysis to the problem? At a high-level, my current goal is to better understand the true needs of humans - physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually - and help bring that understanding to others in practical ways, so that we can better meet each other's true needs and allow others to meet our own.
I know you asked to stray from "type" here, but I will say the majority of this INTP profile is how I would describe myself, although I don't feel like my Fe is quite so undeveloped or cold towards others, among a few other things I won't dwell on here.
b) What sort of things do you find yourself contemplating the most?
Why are things the way they are, truly (I have little patience for superficial or traditional answers)?
Attempting to understand the root cause or issue of occurrences around me, especially within the realms of psychology and sociology: human thought/emotions/behavior/motivations/relational positives and negatives and even physical health. I also find many other areas of science and math to be interesting, but not quite as much. Put another way, trying to identify, understand and apply the principles and "laws" governing the aforementioned. Without willing myself to, always trying to understand how they all correlate/interrelate/affect one another? The world feels extremely interrelated to me, like one huge web and I desperately wish I could stop time, research and understand everything, then start time again (maybe ;-) )
Honestly, CT. It has become a big part of my mental landscape/framework/filtering system that has become so ingrained that I can no longer go very long without having turned some aspect of it over and over in my head. I use it a lot in helping navigate relationships and social situations. I analyze myself and others all the time, always trying to understand "why did I think/say/do that, what function would that represent, etc.?" - what my type is, what other's types are, what does that then mean for this or any given situation? I would love to see CT really take off because I feel it brings some of that clarity and understanding we all need so very much.
Social dynamics between individuals, groups and entire organizations and countries. Where are people coming in line with or violating principles that allow for social harmony and productivity and what effect does this have (this is especially apparent in my corporate job). And where do I fit in? Where should I fit in? Do I care? Yes, I care, but enough to act on it? Most times, no. But then I berate and doubt myself for not acting more (see Section C below).
c) What are 3 habits you have that you wish to improve?
Where to start. I wish I could focus and listen better - I can easily get distracted by tracking the environment and/or getting lost in analytical thought, whether those thoughts are about the current moment or anything else going on in my head. I almost feel like my senses close off at times, but I'm adept at guessing what was probably said and where the conversation progressed to, and enter back in without my audience probably realizing (hate to admit all that).
I would really like to be able to establish and maintain much better relationships with family and friends. I find it very difficult to engage and merely talking about facts or "news/sports/weather" topics are quickly tiring for me (I think I enjoy discussing concepts, principles, causes and speculation). I typically feel very out of place if other parties are not willing to go deeper in conversation, hence I tend to withdraw from most relationships, unfortunately. Perhaps I'm too intense or have too high of expectations...but socializing seems.........exhausting...is that the word...?
I wish I could be more disciplined and courageous to bring more of my knowledge and passions to the outside world, again, as it pertains to helping bring clarity and understanding to others about who they really are, who the people around them really are and what is actually going on around us all. Most times I feel like I can never know anything for sure, so I hesitate to share anything at all...
d) How would others (your family, coworkers, friends) likely describe you?
Anything without brackets comes from my wife: Analytical, bored looking, appear outwardly as unapproachable, emotionless, can come across as intense, serious, receding; [my wife] "when I first met you, I was a little worried that you weren't engaging with the rest of the students, but just kind of hanging back and watching/assessing everyone"; [my boss] "you take a very principled approach", "you're one of the most reliable people I work with - when I ask you to do something, you follow through", "you are very good at asking questions, but out of a genuine desire to really understand the subject matter, rather than ask questions as a subtle challenge"; [old boss] "Well, some of your co-workers felt you were being condescending and they were afraid to approach you for training and help" (which I was very surprised to hear and felt quite terrible about, and went to apologize as soon as possible); "you're always there when I need help, whether practical or otherwise", [another friend] "you strike me as a deep thinker...so...tell me what you think about this *laughs*".
Growing up: parents mention I was fairly chatty and quite hyper (to the point of often putting a hand on my fidgeting/bouncing legs that were causing the dinner table to vibrate - my wife occasionally does this as well); I asked "Why?" to the point of irritation; most teachers liked me although they said I sometimes struggled to accept constructive criticism, which made me upset to hear LOL.
So there you have it...like I said early on, there's so much more I wanted to write and wish I could write it all much better than I did, but I've got to stop here. Hopefully this made some lick of sense. Thanks again for reaching out
Last Edit: Dec 18, 2015 11:09:41 GMT -5 by Amsterdam
βThe world as we have created it is a process of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking.β β Albert Einstein
I should also mention, because I'm currently in the thick of an "episode", that I have bouts of serious research and indecision, which whittles away at my confidence and energy "to do normal life".
Right now, I'm attempting to nail down a major/minor/certificates as I'm going to college for the first time this January. Although no one is requiring me to have all these particulars nailed down, there's a drive within me to have it nailed down...it's difficult to put into words, but it's nearly debilitating at times, where I feel like I can't move forward with anything else in life until I've nailed it down. Dumb I know, but it's real for me.
Then to make it worse, any further research or thought put into it sometimes causes me to re-evaluate everything all over again. It feels like a horrific feedback loop (caught in the "grip" of two functions?) where I wish some all-knowing mentor could step in and say, "Here, do this, then this, then this and here's why and here's how it'll all turn out." I tend to drive my FiSe wife crazy in these times, as she's more app to make decisions more confidently and just stick with them, not coming back to analyze or doubt them nearly as much.
If anything, I just needed to get that all off my chest, but figured it might be of help here...
Last Edit: Dec 18, 2015 11:10:44 GMT -5 by Amsterdam
βThe world as we have created it is a process of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking.β β Albert Einstein
This is wonderful.... (I'll put some of my thoughts in a spoiler to not disturb the thread. @others - please feel free to hop over me and add your input)
This is an incredible level of Ti... How can I go about describing this. *thinks* I have never interacted with someone quite like you in person or online either. But I have a suspicion I might know why. I don't wish to assert anything here, maybe just share my line of thought... if it can be of use.
Rather than describing broad impressions, panoramas, or conceptual tapestries formulating and ebbing across your psyche, you describe a dominating process of self-doubt; of (de)constructive speculation and (re)organization. You describe an experience which is re-creating its perception. In other words, judgment (particularly Ji) is overpowering Pi and leading over it --- not allowing for a fixed worldview to reign.
It seems as though questioning, meticulous analysis and precision are being given priority over breadth, width and vision (although both exist). I can see why you'd relate so much with the INTP profile. If you think about it, when Ti is exceedingly heavy, then the input of the Pe process (Ne or Se) is so negligible that it becomes mostly irrelevant. Your Ti is so heavy that real-time thinking is not rushed at all. It's funny but when you said "I desperately wish I could stop time, research and understand everything, then start time again (maybe ;-)" that's an experience I had for many years in childhood. The world moved far far too fast for me. I would never get a leg-in on a conversation because I was thinking about the conversation so intently and seriously (and rehashing the concept or the sentence structure of it) that by the time I knew what I wanted to say, it was hours later. When I mentioned in the other thread that I didn't have a sense of humor, part of that was due to Ti-heaviness applying intentional and exhaustive (tho it wasn't exhausting to me) contemplation toward every thought.
I would hear a statement, and my initial response was to evaluate the statement via Ti for conceptual purity - and even if the first conclusion drawn was "oh... this is a rhetorical statement, meant to be amusing", the inquiry could often be satiated with that conclusion itself, rather than moving on to the implications of it (like what to do/say about it). This is a reluctance of Pe to participate in the external world. It is not given free reign, so spontaneity is rare. Instead, Pe is used at the agenda and timing of Ji. Even though it is used, it's exercised mostly through deliberation such as through drawing or playing games.
But I also feel differences/divergences... mentally and also physically. It's subtle, but I feel your thoughts follow a more causal sequence, although they do circle around and under the topic. The TiNe has to 'chase down' their own Ne's divergent directions a bit more haphazardly. Though, in many cases I expect there's ample overlap. And the TiNe, despite drastic slowdown and neutralization, has that little 'bounce' to them that can't fully be concealed. Hmm.. like this Ti-heavy TiNe. Or an embarrassing vid of young me. Along with the 'bounce' comes also that divergence of attention and the direction thoughts end up going because of how Ne interacts when subordinate to Ti.
I hadn't thought about how Se may act when subordinate to a very heavy Ti, but when I think about it, it'd expect something very similar to you. Se-Ni has more of a linear intensity/weight rather than a 'bounce'. This weight, amplified by Ti's neutralization would be seen through a very heavy countenance. And the strong halting of Pe would cause Se to slow down so much that we may only see Ni. This is what I've seen of your videos, which confused me because your eyes remain steady Ni-lead-ish but your energy is less Pi than Ji, and your neutralization has always been at max, while very little Fe shows. It seems you're operating almost exclusively with Ti and Ni (if TiNi was a type, you'd be it ), and little of Se or Fe gets through.
Yet, your preferred activities, creative outlets and interests all do center around Se and Fe (i.e. social dynamics, learning about them and adding clarity to that causality... as well as track/field/ultimate-frisbee/golf/etc) but they're addressed on Ti's terms.
This is all just a working hypothesis... Since you're the only case I've seen quite like this I'm not even convinced of my own thoughts, until I see it to be a pattern. But I just hope these thoughts can lead somewhere, even if I'm totally off base.
Post by ayoungspirit on Dec 19, 2015 17:21:00 GMT -5
Anything that can help your progress. I only skimmed through the subsequent posts, to keep my influence low, even if I already strongly integrated my sources and may need a supplemental effort to truly dissociate myself from it. My inadequacy toward the exercise may still be relevant though, and in the meantime, I enjoyed Amsterdam layout.
In this post, I will answer your questions. I consider putting out another one exposing my relative impressions of Ti as a function and of the TiSe and Tine types, based on personal experience. I could also contrast myself with your answers, Amsterdam, if it sounds constructive. In this regard, I would very much like to keep it an open conversation, and would elaborate or exchange on any point.
a) Without thinking in terms of type, how would you describe yourself ?
I will have to wrap my head around this one to frame it in a faithful and cohesive way, pertinent to your research. Indeed, while I tend to be self-centered in my experience, I am not inclined to entertain a solid private or public persona, and I identify mostly with the flow of consciousness I will more properly describe in answer to your second question. It is not to say that I am versatile, my expression is quite consistent, but I tend to shape my outward participation in a reactive and evasive way, to keep a degree of independence while not frustrating outside influences. I do not know which part is more testimonial to my psyche, I believe both could be, so I will dedicate a paragraph to each one.
Curiosity and understanding, or should I say comprehension, are two powerful motivations in me, but oriented toward the depth of my imagination, more than proper knowledge or observation. I follow a trail, guided by a personal sense of aesthetic arrangement and unknown attraction, to unveil one meaningful event after another, skimming through varied materials and diving onto neuralgic points. Everything feels like it has a layer of dreamlike quality, even if, lately, I encouraged myself to be more in touch with people. I do not find much difficulty in developing a relativist kind of thinking, nor to stay composed in most situations, while I know this will not always be the case. I already have experienced the overflowing of nervousness, restlessness, disjointed inspirations and half-illusory attachments that are ready to submerge me when I am confronted with my limits. Notwithstanding my drive toward discovery, I am not too concerned about things, almost skeptical, in a confident, partial, but undefinitive way. In all fairness, I can be easily playful toward subversive ideas and situations, to shake things up.
An outward description will, I hope, allow us to go into more specifics while not losing the big picture, maybe. A twenty-something, I have been a somewhat side-tracked student for most of my young life. Obedient only to a point, I never really felt the need to answer to the expectations of others, accommodated in this fashion by open minded parents. I focused on my free time to explore stories through books, movies, games and soon started to create my owns. During my teens, I took a sporadic interest in writing a fantasy novel based on these inspirations without concern for technical aspects, only to make it entertaining, evocative and parodic. After failing to publish it, and not too preoccupied by my professional future, I choose to pursue studies in literature to learn the craft. Progressively, as I was being complimented for an academic competency I never really suspected in myself, I integrated more and more thinking into a comprehensive approach not only of texts, but life as well. I still cannot seem to abide to the academic regimen though, and even if I am usually conscientious in my work, I tend to cherry-pick my interests and to favor my line of reasoning, failing some classes by working instead on other things, notably psychology instead of grammar. Along my stroll, I am not sure I met many like-minded people, and did not make too much efforts to respond to social calls, nor being the life of the party. I was and still am absorbed by my pursuits, but with at core a lack of real personal interest, which leaves me agreeable, polite and trustworthy, open to humor though not demonstrative. I did have some bouts of loyalty, even charm and feistiness, but in an irregular fashion. Today, being slightly more self-conscious, I am more quietly supportive, I respect people and their difference more, knowing them to be my existential equals as well as my kith and kin through good and bad.
b) What sort of things do you find yourself contemplating the most?
To contemplate is indeed a good choice of word for my mental disposition, and I would encourage it this way. At my best, so to say, I aspire to be an active contemplator, choosing a side, a course of action, following an inclination, but staying somewhat lucid and fair toward the whole.
To describe the process more fully, I would say I mainly follow philosophical and practical perspectives to understand the immediate reality on an abstract standpoint, obviously. I am not so much into hypothetical thinking, except as a social courtesy, tool or interest, depending on my own goodwill in the situation. My thinking is naturally integrative, synthetic and preoccupied by balance, even if I cannot always perfectly contain or justify some of my tangents and ramblings. My different activities, from learning to physical training, converge to the understated realization of a singular insight. I do not like to fixate on something for too long though, and, to the extent that my energy permit its, I like to contrast my experience with all kind of mental novelties, especially strange, intriguing ones, that defy admitted knowledge and expectations. In this regard, humanity is only a small, understated boundary to my investigations. Nevertheless, among the many objects of my scrutiny, some people, some personalities, whether sympathetic or antipathetic, worthy or unworthy, find their place, thanks also to some unassuming, sometimes superficial empathy. I would say ultimately that I aspire to properly reflect, but I am not always self-conscious or brave enough to follow through. Again, this is very general, but to be honest, my interests, while rarely passionate, are by nature broad and contextual. Thorough my younger years, I used to project myself a lot more carelessly in action-packed fantasies. At last, when I engage with other, and certainly to a fault, I use clear, oftentimes unapologetic explanation as my style of speech, or personal narrative as you can see, and I enjoy a little debate, especially on my own terms.
I must add as a side note and a foreshadowing of the next two questions that the abstract nature of my reasoning was and still is not always obvious to me, as it seems tangible or at least perfectly consistant to my eyes. I really took time to understand that other people were considering my educated daydreaming as empty as the wind, my lifestyle as very passive, and that it was true to some extent. If I were not concerned about my physical health, and notwithstanding a bit of love for movement, I would often stay on my chair all day, accomplishing nothing.
Following the trail, I got a vague, perhaps somewhat dreadful and repressed, sense of where things were going. Abiding to fatality, I was still unsure of my ongoing ability to pursue a work of personal expression. To make for it, I took interest not only into personal growth but also physical health. Even if today I am opposing the idea of incremental progress, and I consider my conscience as an end more than a mean, personality related micronutrition and reasoned physical activity are still integral parts of my way of life.
c) What are 3 habits you have that you wish to improve?
I say the first thing should probably be to choose more mundane habits to work on, but I swear this translate to very simple things, more so because I like more and more to counterbalance my mental focus with what appear to me as honest simplicity.
Now, I would like to be less oblivious to what is outside my view, to accept that, like everyone else, my ideas will always fall short of something, and, like I said in the Fe-dominant thread, to keep my cool about it until this is only natural that I cannot.
This way, I try to have a more spontaneous, one can say realistic, approach to everyday work and conversation, to be less dismissive behind my unsuspicious exterior and to listen intently to people's preoccupations. I always have been concerned about leaving other personal space, but less about engaging in between these spaces. Sometimes, the need to digest information play against an authentic expression in the flow of repartee. This would still be the easy part in respect to looking, literally, at the far ranging alterity of the world and my relatively innocuous place in it, and remaining self-satisfied, unassuming even.
So, in the recent months, I signed a contract as assistant librarian in high school. This still is a good way to compromise with the world and preserve my own personal space, but there is a small potential for extraversion in it. I still think it would be unwise to up myself.
d) How would others (your family, coworkers, friends) likely describe you?
Again, you were inspired in proposing these three categories to chew on, as my behavior differs a little bit from one group to the other. I will elude the most preposterous thing my discrete nature has inspired and try to focus on characteristic traits that resonate with me. I could elaborate on the reputations I acquired if you wish, but though interesting, I believe this would be less reliable in this instance.
My family would probably describes me as patient, educated, kindhearted though a bit stern and critical, funny, trustworthy though lacking investment and initiative, a little single-minded, ascetic even, complicated and sometimes the devil's advocate.
My friends would consider my quiet and stoic presentation bordering on withdrawnness, expect me to be big and strong-headed (more than I actually am), delicate albeit a little clumsy, sedentary but not quite a homebody, ironic, slightly immature and ultimately unexpected.
My coworkers would find me serious, mostly reliable, nice albeit formal, imaginative and even unconventional, conscientious bordering on anxious, private, shy perhaps. Students say I am weird and probably think I am neglected, something I willfully keep going, as a tribute to casualness.
I hope that, content or form, this is workable, there is always more to capture but only so much time in a day, and I cannot hope to overrule all of my shortsightedness. I kept an overview, to stay on point, monologuing about myself is not as comfortable as it used to be, but I wondered all along about facts and anecdotes, and I very well may not be flexible enough yet to insert them in. I also tried to skim some of the useless verbosity and pompousness that I myself would not enjoy to read.
Last Edit: Dec 19, 2015 19:07:57 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Post by ayoungspirit on Dec 21, 2015 12:57:14 GMT -5
So, hello again. The fact that you indicate to like my post suggests to me that I will not yet overstay my welcome in following through. I still did not read the previous entries though, so pardon me if I state the obvious, it should be better than to prematurely vampirise the conversation.
Note that the following is straightly based on my current understanding of the function, it amounts in methodology to a casual opinion. In this regard, I can say that, among the other Beta types, I feel more at home with the laid-back SeTi. My analytical side, without the filter of writing and rhetoric, seems to deviate toward what you call "analytical sensationalist", but more embarrassing to me than to their proper owners.
While I have always been somewhat conscientious, inspired in this fashion by a FiSe mother with heavy Te, conceptual philosophy and the Ti-types themselves gave me an individual appreciation for logical and meticulous thinking. Although it is not to say that this interest translated properly into practice. To be honest, the Ti function often feels downright uncomfortable. Sequential logic quickly makes me feel lost, and overall, attention to consistency and detail is draining. I must even admit I do not like to think hard, or maybe I am just weak in this respect. I can willfully get intense, inspired, but still slow and clumsy in deduction. Focusing on it too much make me anxious and I find healthier in my case to work toward an insightful yet peaceful flow of mind, when I am not dismissing thinking as overrated, or definitively reductive. I surely am less proficient than in moral discernement, less patient, resilient than in social matters. My decision making thus appears less rational, following my impression of where everything must fall, what I want, what is my calling (I consider to elaborate on this in the Fe-dominant thread, to answer to mysteryabout the place of Fe in the NiFe worldview).
Conversing with oftentimes unforgiving, if not obtuse Ti-types put me in front of the lack of precision and articulation in my worldview. I myself will opportunistically point gaps in logic to people, but not always in the most transparent nor efficient way. It is in stark contrast to the literate vocabulary I use ingenuously (sometimes not so much).
On another level, emptiness and detachment poorly relate to me, feel more like escapism than truth. Even though I cultivate stoicism, controlling, or more accurately canalizing emotions and their expressions to, in the best case, discern through them seems a bit different in my case, more versatile, personally related, and a vacuum is certainly too restrictive to be final. There is a Buddhist element to it, a clear conscience if you will, and I could find the meditation practice to be relaxing certainly, but I aspire to be full, not empty. There is always an element of understated drama in me.
A quick glance at the TiSe type
Unfortunately, I only know one TiSe on a personal level, and then, it is not much to say. More so, he is only about twenty. Therefore, the divide between this part and the next will be a bit artificial, you can take the whole as a musing on Ti-lead types.
Compared to me, and in the style of my answer to your questionnaire, I would say he is earnest, hardworking, unassuming, friendly, laconic, less interested in amassing informations about a subject, at least where I am concerned, less reasoned but truly more active in sports and engineering, more supervised in his professional path (both in a play-by-the-rules fashion and to the biding of over-concerned parents) but also more enterprising in a concrete path toward independence.
The rest of my impressions comes from public figures. In my eyes, they often appear to have a cute, almost sugary stand toward morality. Notwithstanding a hint of chauvinism, movies by Clint Eastwood for example reinforce this stereotype to me. They feel unbold in their boldness. To be fair, I cannot deny they have powerful moments, based on simplicity, sacrifice and duty. These are themes I can resonate with.
A partial overview of the TiNe type
On the other hand, I had more acquaintances from the TiNe type. I must say acquaintances, because I never got around being friend, least close, whether from my dismissive nature or perceived indelicacy. Thus, I will use a more general stance on them. One must keep in mind though that I talk about a specific sample of people, which were and still are quite young, teenagers even, and the pronouns are not meant to establish a definitive judgement of the type. If you notice any resentment, it might be some vestigial remnant of individual disapproval, only testimonial to my sensibilities. Like everyone, the overall impression they leave seems to be tributary to their level of comfort with their functions, more so polar ones.
Firstly, I must say that, if not too much pressured, they always seem one step ahead in definition or logical debate, quick to detect gaps that others may be unaware of (and not always given proper credit for it due to the deeply iconoclastic nature of this innocent process). In contrast, they appear, perhaps due to clumsy appearance and candid, sincere aspirations, always one step behind in the people games. I guarantee some really are clueless though, even by alpha standard
Kidding aside, I find candor, while tough to maintain for self-conscious people, a surprisingly efficient tool to engage in with others, with new ideas, and to expect the unexpected. In this respect, I was never disappointed that they shared an open and fair interest for all subjects, however mundane, and were routinely dedicated to look at new things. I was left feeling more "territorial" in every sense of the word, and with less friends than them.
In accordance, a lot of them seems to present a "feel good", happy-go-lucky attitude, sometimes endearing, but other times deeply unnerving. They can smile ad nauseum, child-likely, suggesting in the meantime that they lack nuance and more so ambivalence in their moral judgement. Often concerned about social issues, that's that, they can speak in spite of some questionable postures. I must admit though that humble and self-conscious ones have defied my obviously underestimated expectation by being very perceptive and thoughtful. It should also be said that, during the time, I did not always made the most appropriate calls, nor was considerate as one could expect me to be. I was perhaps even just more ruminative, disgruntled about it. Yet, in my mind, they cannot shake a level of cheese, maybe because they appear inescapably upfront, even honest so to say.
This is never so true as when they throw themselves as social engineer or moral crusader. Some of them want to teach you things whether you are interested or not, sometimes unapolegetically. Whereas I know most of the time where to stop if needed, at least in form if not in length, they seem happy to butt head. And while I am inconspicuously self-conscious toward my presentation, being able to accommodate my public after a bit of warm up, they may deliberately refuse to. Indeed, like for the TiSe type, this untamed energy can be very productive.
Finally, the ones I know have a great but self-referential sense of humor, rarely on point but extravagant and revealing. Likewise, they also not always are as brainy as one could suspect, oftentimes vigorously invested in sports or trekking (the one about blisters), even the life of the nerdy party.
Last Edit: Feb 21, 2016 11:26:44 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
I would hate to bring this up, especially here, where confirmation bias reigns as this forum's most wanted villain when it comes to noticing patterns and speculating about possible causes for phenomenon and things we observe, but Amsterdam I identify with too much of how you described yourself in your post. So much so, that I don't even want to post my own answers to his questions. It would be repetitive. I just wanted to point out that birthday though... It's seriously getting to me. ayoungspirit too! I don't want to believe in zodiac information, but I'm not liking how it keeps popping up everywhere I look lately. This has to be the work of that menacing villain CB.
Post by ayoungspirit on Dec 22, 2015 5:42:08 GMT -5
Nexet : Without resorting to astrology, which would be an interesting subject in itself, there is at least one science study to suggest that the season of birth could have a significant impact on mood. Mechanisms still are unverified though. Here is a report.
If Amsterdam were to give me his blessing, I would continue my journey into the corridor by commentating, maybe contrasting some of his answers. Devil is in the details after all
Notwithstanding, I should be damned if I were to blather again before another party was to share its point of view. This is a collective thread after all.
Last Edit: Dec 22, 2015 6:26:55 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Just a question, how did the people located in this corridor type themselves before being visually read by CT VR? I mean, when introspection and weak instruments of assessment were the only resources available? What I meant is, what type/types did u think you were before joining this forum?
@morsecode I had tested as INTJ mostly, but after introspection and research had settled on INTP.
Nexet I agree with your sentiment regarding the futility of posting my answers given how strongly I resonate with Amsterdam's answers and, to a lesser extent, ayoungspirit's. This together with a cycle of self-doubt and deconstruction (who am I to be interesting enough to post a response? what is "interesting" to begin with? my answers would be isomorphic in the main to mcgheezie's so is it really worth my time?, etc...) leads to my silence.
"Not *how* the world is, is the mystical, but *that* it is." - Wittgenstein
If Amsterdam were to give me his blessing, I would continue my journey into the corridor by commentating, maybe contrasting some of his answers. Devil is in the details after all
ayoungspirit - I give my blessing, as it were Although unnecessary of you to ask, I do appreciate the sentiment; I very much look forward to it, in fact.
@morsecode - When first introduced to MBTI-like tests, I went back and forth between INFJ and INTJ. Discovering Dario Nardi's tests, I came out at INFP, alternatively ISFJ. Like most of us I'm sure, I was frustrated and extremely skeptical of this overall experience, thus continued researching, until happening upon A.J. Drenth's site and eventually his brief post about CT. No other cognitive/personality theory has introduced this level of psychological AND empirical detail, thus my continued interest and support.
Nexet & faeruss - I must mention that I am surprised at your responses, not only in that my haphazard and poorly constructed answers could actually be followed and understood by others (more analytical self-doubt), but that said answers actually resonated with others to such a strong degree. Encouraging for me in multiple ways.
Nexet I notice you are listed as 'TiSe' and strongly relate to my answers, Auburn leans towards my perception functions as being Ni/Se as well, yet I relate more with Ne/Si than Ni/Se, e.g. while reading this post, the function descriptions in the book preview and observing and talking with my FiSe wife (her experience of her inner/outer perception seems to contrast with mine, and she herself has agreed with that statement multiple times in the past). Perhaps a difficult and too openly-ended of a question, but I'm wondering how you experience Se/Ni as a TiSe.
Auburn I have noticed a trend within CT where it seems that when an individual has an interest and participates in physical activities (sports, working out, etc.), it can be used as evidence for possessing Se. If you have the time/desire, can you explain the correlation?
βThe world as we have created it is a process of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking.β β Albert Einstein
@morsecode It all began with an assessment my mother told me to take to help me narrow down the options for my future career. I got "ISTJ, The Duty Fufiller" and couldn't believe that I was given such a bland, lifeless, and stressful set of options to make a life out of. So I kept testing until I was satisfied, until I was like "Yeah, that's me all the way." I stopped at INTP, but thought they were weird. I joined the INTPforum thinking it would help me to know for sure if I was indeed an INTP, I also joined the INTJforum because secondarily, I was slightly more attracted to the way people there argued their points. I enjoyed reading the heated arguments in between two members over whatever. The way some individuals saw things attracted me. I knew that the form and structure of their rebuttals was something I was not able to replicate or implement to my own advantage, so I never posted. On the other hand, INTPforum had a structure I could adapt to easily. They bring up a topic and attack it, ebbing it from different sides (when they aren't joking), using vocabulary I had not yet been introduced to. I spent months learning new words, "lurking in the background", while not truly wanting to interact because they weren't serious enough. Eventually, I fit in when it came to composing threads and post, but something was missing. While everyone ebbed at topics, I seemed to, in my mind, in a fell swoop, have a satisfactory answer for a serious topic, or just not be interested. I doubted having Ne/Si for a long time before thinking weird stuff trying to find ways MBTI was wrong about me being an atypical IXXX. I looked into different theories and such only to find nothing. The only reasons I pursued this information was because I thought it would be useful, relevant to my life, and strategically advantageous in making decisions in the future. Know yourself or at least attempt to...
@peopleofthiscorridor I can imagine that no model before CT would feel/be satisfactory to properly type psyques like the ones you guys share in this corridor. I was/am curious to see how people like you get typed by other systems. For a long time it has seemed true that probably no one here in this forum would protest against the opinion that those models aren't satisfactory to type people in general, regardless of the corridors or rooms people occupy - and probably this bitter/sauer/uneasy feeling of keeping searching everywhere for one's own type and seeing that there was something fundamentaly flawed in the essence of those models and not even that realisation helping the situation is an experience that unite us all here - brought us all to this forum. Yes, we are lucky to find our corridors, after the long dark sweaty search - we know types are never going to define us but instead be runways for a peak faster better more lucid journey spiralling up.
Last Edit: Mar 29, 2016 20:36:10 GMT -5 by Deleted
Amsterdam - I'm happy this model has helped shed some light in your personal journey. Yeah, I think there is a possibility that the slowdown caused by your Ti is so strong that even a subordinate Ne is being made still/steady. Psychologically, it's a very tricky call to make since there is a lot of overlap between types with the same leading function. Without a greater pronunciation/expression of the Pe process, it's hard to say which is present. Then again, without a stronger pronunciation of Pe, the question may be largely moot - since the nature of the psychology present will depend just as much on the Ji process. Either way I'm glad for your sharing and the progress we've made - it seems pretty clear that you're at least Ti-lead. I'll try to think of what we can do to verify TiNe or verify TiSe.
Oh yes. Activities (sports) high in tactile feedback aren't a measure that should be used to identify Se. But after Se has been identified by other means, I have indeed found it to be more of a ...statistical truth... that Se types are generally more fond of such areas than Ne types. This is because of the nature of Ne, which can operate in a more physically-divorced sense. As per the SeTi chapter:
"....having Se as a primary process, the SeTi will seek to explore their environment vividly and realistically. Unlike the NeTi, this exploration will contain a more direct interface with the external world rather than interactions via proxies or constructs. Greater activity then becomes a far more typical result, leading the SeTi to engage in more kinesthetic learning"
So in general, Se finds its 'stimuli' in the richness of a situation/reality/setting while Ne finds it partly in the present and partly in where the present prompts their abstraction to drift.
Now, this doesn't take into account a type that has an introverted process leading. As Jung describes, the primary process takes priority and part of the definition of the introvert is one that is innately divorced from the objective world. So the FiSe and TiSe are going to be a hybrid. When it comes to profile descriptions, this is one of the things that makes them rather challenging.
The TiSe's perception of the world will not be "connected" in a literal sense, but what does register (i.e. what the mind has in terms of what it can play with conceptually) is a puzzle drawn from what is actually seen. Still this allows for a level of abstraction that enjoys the theoretical and axiomatic, but which can come back around and relate directly to something.
Oppositely, the TiNe starts with a twofold subjectivity. Not only do they make sense of reality subjectively via Ti, but they do so using a perceptive apparatus that is non-literal to start with, hence why --- as ayoungspirit pointed out --- the TiNe can be seen as oblivious and whimsically imaginative.
Nexet - That just made me think of something... INTPforum can be used to get a sense of the "Ne" style of interaction of the TiNe. [for mcgheezie] I admit that forum is enjoyable to me precisely because it goes into absurd places like every 0.75 threads. There's a curious combination of serious thought and vernacular and just as much flamboyant triviality. It's a combination of ancient Athens and Wonderland. If too much Ne is involved, it just goes off the rails or the hypotheses go nowhere.
The other interesting thing about it is that speculation is "the point" on that forum. It has no functional application much of the time, and that's what keeps people engaged. The endless re-generation of new hypothesis is itself the fruit; the reward and satiation. Granted, a good percent of members there are also various NeTi's, NeFi's and a few SiTe's... (and some NiFe's)