SeFi? hmmm... that's peculiar. I think that, if his signals were showing Fi, I'd probably need to rethink the signals themselves... since the signals are never meant to define psychology, but to point to the psychology already there. His psychology seems highly directive-Fe to me from every angle I look. What does his psychology itself strike you as, I wonder?
That said, I still see the whole range of Ti-Fe signals, beginning with stop-start articulation, technical speech, Fe emphasis/exerted-effort and social shepherding, etc. He has a very outward-focused view of human power. And though he almost seems militant in his philosophy, it's very different from Te logistics. It's a sort of aim for self-mastery, as I note in this thread.
I find that actual Te users never express so much exertion or drama in their struggle-for-greatness. For Fe users that are aiming for success, it's a very involved process with elements such as self-shaming, self-bashing, self-improving. Te remains rather detached to some degree from their own functional and logistical ability and they mainly refine their "method" externally, while the refinement of their "self" happens far more privately in Fi.
edit: But this thread is about feedback, so I'll digress! I don't mean to go off on a tangent.
Post by The Doctor on Apr 13, 2016 22:06:53 GMT -5
I fully agree that he seems Fe. He's almost the celebrity avatar of ENFJ-ness when his statements and focus of interest are taken into account. I'm pointing out that he shows some signals that don't align with the system - if he is an FeNi - primarily his mouth movements and stiff hands. Maybe it's all an act? His is after all, an entertainer by trade, and his genuine warmth could be Enneagram 2w3 so/sx, which he is usually typed as (or 3w2 so/sx). Both of which are uncommon (but not rare) for SeFi.
I didn't really notice it until I watched this video, where the narrator effectively slams Fe smiles as 'insincere' and points out how Will Smith doesn't do that, and that his Fi smile is 'sincere'.
I've many times heard Fe and Fi users refer to each others' signals as 'insincere', under the guise of "if I did that, it would mean this" projection. However, Fi users are far more likely to accuse Fe users of being 'fake'
This looks much more like an Fi snarl ^
While this looks more like an Fe smile ^ (pre cosmetic surgery pics of her are hard to find).
I'm not asserting that Nancy is an Fe user or not. I'm also not saying that I believe Will Smith is an SeFi or FeNi, as I'm uncertain at this point. What I am saying is that Nancy's smile is more Fe than Will Smith's, and the guy who does this series of videos inadvertently picked up on it. I'd love to have Will Smith on my FeNi team, but I'm not sure he is.
Just to totally derail for a moment, since this is already a derail post...
This brings me back to something I've mentioned many times. A person's Enneagram stacking is a huge source of mistyping in cognitive function type models (and vice versa) if it is an unusual combination. I think that may be what's going on with Will Smith.
Cognitive functions are how people think. Enneagram is why people think, and often what they think about.
Here are the more typical combinations.
1 - J types, especially SJs. 2 - Fe doms 3 - Extroverts 4 - Fi doms, and NiFe 5 - Ti doms, NiTe, and SiTe 6 - Ti and Te dom and aux 7 - Ne and Se doms 8 - Se and Te doms 9 - P leads
So, for examples, the following will often cause mistype frictions...
1 - P types, especially NPs. 2 - Te and Se doms 3 - Introverts 4 - Te doms 5 - Fe doms 6 - Fi and Fe dom and aux 7 - Fi and Si doms 8 - Ni and Fi doms 9 - J leads
This is something that needs to be considered when the VR signals don't align well with the inherent personality.
Last Edit: Apr 13, 2016 23:30:30 GMT -5 by The Doctor
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
Hmm, in the video you linked, Will Smith is used as an example of a warm, charismatic and authentic smile, and Nancy Pelosi is used to exemplify a "fake smile".
However, Nancy Pelosi is a definite Te-Fi by the CT signals. The video he breaks down actually shows nothing but Te-Fi tension, asymmetrical smiles, horizontal splitting and taut squares:
compare these images above to the examples of Te and Fi found in the book, such as:
the taut square causes a clenching of the jaw, as the jaw is tensed by the depressor anguli oris muscles. it creates that sort of "gimpy" effect that we see on the rightmost image of Nancy's first collage above, and the top-rightmost image of the 2nd collage.
And then here we see asymmetrical smiles in quick succession. The second collage of Nancy above was done by freeze-framing rather randomly within the span of a couple seconds, and we see these asymmetrical expressions everywhere. Her lip switches from pulling inward, to pulling outward, to pulling leftward, to pulling rightward, etc.
Now, if we see an actual video of her, I see the same sort of thing:
Note here that the interviewer is an actual Fe-user. I think it makes for a good contrast. When nancy articulates, it's almost as if her lips are far more loose than they need to be, and they flail about sometimes, or pull downward heavily. This is all part of Fi-Te's "uncoordinated" presentation.
Now, the signals this guy uses are:
Authentic smile: - raise upper lip - drop/loosen the jaw - contract the obicularis oris (smile with the eyes)
Fake smile: - smiling widely - tense jaw - no use of the obicularis oris
I don't think these signals are correct, nor do they synch up with CT at the advanced level. As I touch on the "On Vultology" chapter:
The static presence or absence of upward tension alone cannot perfectly differentiate these two functions. If a person’s mouth appears to move with very conscious intention, having no accidental snarls and possessing a yang emotional delivery, then regardless of the quality of their tension, this individual is certainly an Fe type. Likewise, a mouth that is relaxed with plenty of slack in their cheeks, but which demonstrates many accidental snarls and asymmetries when speaking, and which lacks a coordinated impact, most certainly reveals an Fi-Te psychology. Fi tension cannot be the only signal that is examined in order to determine a person’s ethical process. - Cognitive Type, P. 277
...Wideness of smiles is not a standalone indicator of Fe vs Fi. What tells apart one from another is never a static appearance, but a dynamic phenomenon. Take for example, SiTe Sean Hannity:
His smile is incredibly wide, but wholly asymmetrical (and inauthentic-looking to me). They pull the lip downard (middle bottom img), or slightly up to one side (top rightmost). His smiles are reminiscent of SiTe George Bush. Now, to me, Sean Hannity is snarling accidentally in these upward lifts of the lip, even if there's no obvious clash --- partly because his whole smile is so anatomically big and long.
Now, as for Will Smith himself, I don't really see him make asymmetrical smiles or have any sort of uncoordinated presentation. If a person has a degree of upward tension but it's more of a static feature, while their presentation is altogether on-point, then CT would class this as Fe still. Take for example, FeNi Neil DeGrasse Tyson:
He's got a very similar "snarling" smile, but there's a nuance to this which I can't explain. It looks - as with Will Smith's - Fe. I can quantify a few of the elements involved here:
- No clashing tension - - - for example, the depressor anguli muscles are not competing in the smile and pulling it downward into a taut square. - - - the bulges in his cheeks are not caused by the "splitting" that happens from a smile being pulled from a variety of directions.
Think of an Fi-Te mouth as one that has 4 pullies, with 2 attached to each lip-corner. One pulls up and one pulls down. As the person talks, these four pullies are not coordinated in the degree with which they pull.
Inversely, the Fe-Ti oscillation generally only has 2 pullies, one for each lip-corner. Furthermore, generally the two pullies are raised together at the same time --- except for when an obvious smug smirk is being used (which itself is meant to move social dynamics) or some other methodology of presentation.
None of this refutes Will Smith as exhibiting Fi/Te signals.
How so? ...I just clarified what an Fi/Te vs Fe/Ti signal is --- and his don't fit that definition. A static "snarl" of the upper lip, with no asymmetrical tension, no conflicting clashing in facial muscles, is not going to reveal an Fi consciousness.
But I think I know what you mean: I don't really disagree that Will Smith's static smile photos better fall in the Fi category, if nothing else were known of him, but his actual smile -- in its dynamic form, and how it involves him in it and the crowd -- isn't a display of Fi. This is also why I make careful mention in various places of the book that relying on static signals (especially above the person's psychology) is dangerous. It's very easy to get caught up in the details, or to overuse 1 signal to justify a whole function pair.
It isn't a perfect system, as much as my Ti would love it to be. I tried! There are outliers:
But I don't think that is truly a problem as much as it is an expected failing of any model approximating a natural system. If we make a habit to postpone judgment on a function pairing until all signals are seen, then we greatly increase the accuracy of our reads.
(I have to go to sleep for now, but will pick this back up tomorrow ^^)
I think part of the issue is reliance on still photos. This has tripped me up many times. Where a smile ends up isn't as important as how it gets there. A great case for this is Tom Hiddleston, who regularly ends up at something resembling Fi's circular mouth spread and snarl.
However, if you watch how he gets to that point, it's always through this movement, which is perhaps some of the most pure unadulterated Fe available on the internet.
Will Smith doesn't do this ^
He smiles like this. Very circular first, and upper lip toward the nose.
And here are those muscles moving in reverse.
It's almost identical to SeFi (or possibly FiSe) Daisy Ridley, who despite the way her mouth moves (as the most exaggerated Fi mouth I think I've ever seen), can end up at a sort of Fe effect in still images.
Last Edit: Apr 14, 2016 4:41:09 GMT -5 by The Doctor
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.
Post by ayoungspirit on Apr 14, 2016 10:06:43 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I did not found a better quality, but I think this video might be helpful in our observations.
At first glance, there seems to be something more spontaneously receptive and confident in Obama compared to Smith. His speech is also more nicely laid-out, without the impetus to drag the audience through an idiosyncratic line of thought (2:27), a quirk which has become associated with the actor's presentation.