I've never heard of this man before. Incredible articulation, I'm sucked in (a quarter through atm)
What I see visually also reflects what I sense cognitively of the man. That being a balanced proficiency in all 4 energetic quadrants. He's got excellent articulation, a lot of J body posture, but it's also not overly Je. It leans toward the Ji side, definitely. He's got a decent level of eye-toggling, eye-drifts and swaying body too. So he's not necessarily locked into one quadrant.
I see all the signs of Ti quite present, with a lot of neutralizations, meticulous, semantical articulation -- but also the signature inverted rationalization of Ti. It explores topics conceptually, but with a type of almost scientific skepticism, even though the topic is non-objective. Mental objects are evaluated based on their conceptual shapes and geometries for holes and cavities... and he seeks to 'arrive' at a more satisfying conceptual landing point on every matter. He has this tentative, but special appreciation for the subjective and for allowing abstract ideas to germinate on their own... which very much speaks to a lack of objective-fixation. That doesn't necessarily mean he leads with introversion, but he's not object-fixed, at least.
I'm seeing strong Ti user, likely Beta, but undecided on the rest. Though, to me this feels like one of those cases where a person has so much access to their mental faculties that the concept of a type starts to break down --- since type has the most functional meaning when it describes/differentiates the abilities we do have natively from those we are weakest in... or we struggle most in. Still, this has got me curious.
On a personal note... I'm *blown away* by his knowledge bank! And the complexity of his worldview; multi-faceted. Gosh, I have so many authors to read. Been putting off reading Nietzsche for ages. I don't really have an educated opinion to share on what he's saying yet... but I'd love to hear people's thoughts on the vid itself.
edit: ok, looking at youtube videos of him when he was younger, i think he is quite likely NiFe. He's got a very persistent, drift-y, governing gaze when he's not sitting down... and his dialogue with other people is a lot more slowed down, viscous and liquid. he brings everything, every point and argument, into a very enormous, panoramic worldview and contextualizes everything within it --- rather than thinking or arguing axiomatically.
i think i see now that he's against the sort of J-lead delineations that often exist in culture. he's at home in the evolving, morphing worldview of his Ni, but he has an excellent ability to communicate the subtleties of this large tapestry and how every element of everything else, contributes to each thing itself.
In an effort to become acquainted with all major theorists in psychology, I began to follow Jordan B. Peterson's 2017 university lecture series online.
It's difficult to articulate how well synthesized his view feels to me. He acknowledges the current lack of agreement around major theories of personality but takes the class through a series of theorists, weaving together the overlaps and creating what is -- as far as my exposure can tell -- the most integrated (Pi) view of psychology that I've come across, given the terribly unfinished place we find ourselves in.
- Sigmund Freud - Carl G. Jung - Friedrich Nietzsche - Martin Heidegger - Jean Piaget - Carl Rogers - Big Five - etc
But what I find most fascinating is his take on Jung. Unlike anyone else I've seen, Peterson actually synthesizes Jung's work into modern language; paralleling his concepts to what we've learned from statistical/factor analysis, cross-cultural examination, brain hemispheres, mammalian evolution, etc. I highly recommend his free lecture series to anyone who'd like a very scientific take on the Archetypes.
Have any of you guys gone through portions of his stuff? (i know michellelyn mentioned so)
Two ethos systems, as I see them, based on his examples. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Repulsion to the thing that can tear you apart - Fi (Moving away from it: Te)
Members of dominance hierarchy start to cooperate, "patterns that govern dominance hierarchy are the place from which ethics derived" - Fe
This is why I think Fi-Te may be older than Ti-Fe, based on Erifrail's description of Fi: "These two themes are our memetic reinterpretation of what is conducive to life (the somatic) and what is destructive to life. They are, in essence, a sophistication of the basic instinct and bias for survival."
High: Openness High: Extroverted, sub: Assertiveness High: Neuroticism High: Agreeableness (high for a male) High: Conscientious, sub: Industrious
General Attitudes/MBTI Correlate:
E+N+F +"J" (conductor), Neurotic
This essentially matches what we have observed from his cognitive type. As well as recent observations about his appearance of affect. As per the discussion on mental illness (neuroticism):
^ as we can see he displays the flat affect on his eyes, the persistent downward/sorrowful pull of the lip corners, and when articulating his ideas we also see consistent signals of anger and disgust along the way.
I wonder if his tendency toward neuroticism was part of what fueled Peterson's interest in psychology?..
Actually, his Wikipedia page says this:
After graduating from Fairview High School in 1979, Peterson entered the Grande Prairie Regional College to study political science. He later transferred to the University of Alberta, where he completed his B.A. in 1982. Afterwards, he took a year off to visit Europe. There he developed an interest in the psychological origins of the Cold War and was plagued by apocalyptic nightmares about the escalation of the nuclear arms race. As a result, he became depressed about mankind's capacity for evil and destruction, and dove into the works of Carl Jung, Friedrich Nietzsche and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn in an attempt to rationalise his emotions. He then returned to the University of Alberta, and received a B.A. in psychology in 1984.
From this, it seems his neurotic sensitivity caused him to become overwrought by the realization of evil, and to therefore become obsessed with coming to understand it in order to relieve his feeling of helplessness against it. This sounds very etype 8+5, with an emphasis on 5 (I dunno if we've tried to guess at his etype before?) From other things I've heard about him, I'd guess 581 or 851 for his tritype.
This is basically reiterating what you've written down about his Big-5 analysis and cognitive type, Auburn. So it seems CT, Big-5, Enneagram, and behavioral/psychological observations align
The disposition that "the world is a dangerous place" and that "one has to secure oneself against it" is more 6 than 8, and Peterson definitely displays this underlying philosophy in what he does.
Also, being "plagued by apocalyptic nightmares about the escalation of the nuclear arms race" sounds very much like 6, which is obsessing over what could happen wrong. My understanding is that 6 devolves into a kind of Paranoid personality disorder.
But yea I would also include 8 in there too. He does treat matters as a matter of hierarchical dynamics. He often phrases things in terms of dominance, and who is left at the bottom and why.
I see signs of 6, 8, 5 and 1 for him. Which is no issue to me because I'm skeptical of tritype.
This is basically reiterating what you've written down about his Big-5 analysis and cognitive type, Erifrail. So it seems CT, Big-5, Enneagram, and behavioral/psychological observations align
And to throw Ekman in there as well, we see signals of Fear + Anger quite pronounced and constant.
Compare, for example, to FeNi Neil DeGrasse Tyson:
Tyson does make expressions of anger/disapproval/disgust (bottom row, right) but they're of a far less severe nature. Also, he lacks the flat affect that Peterson has.
I think Tyson is an FeNi closer to a 7. His eyes light up with more Pe energy, and he's very much about focusing on the positives and the hopes for the future.
Alerith another example of his 6ish worldview is here at 16:10 he says: "this is something i learned from reading mythology, if you have to fight a dragon you should go to its slayer before it comes to your village, and so people think that what i did is courage, but i don't think that's right - i just think i can see danger coming, and you get to pick your anxieties.."
6, like 5 and 7, is a head type. And while 5 is considered the "headiest" head type in the sense that 5's live in their heads - somewhat detached from tangible reality, 6 is actually considered by Naranjo as the most logical and devoted to reason type (surpirsingly). And so, we shouldn't assume all intellectuals to have 5 as a head center by necessity (although it is more likely they have one of the head centers 5/6/7 as a core type, although this isn't always the case either). Ultimately all the head centers attempt to do the same thing - deal with the unknown of existence - which creates fear. The difference is in the drive or what I would call the "style" in which it manifests.
For example, in the (primarily social) 5 there seems to be a need for knowledge as a way of making sense of the universe in order to find meaning that will fill in some existential psychic hole (I strongly relate to this).
In the 6 - there is a need for safety - and so knowledge and the world of ideas is a tool for solving potential problems. This leads to a lot of questioning and thus the philosopher archetype in enneagram theory is actually given to 6 (rather than the 5 researcher) - specifically tritype 641 - which might be peterson's (not that these descriptions are so great, but just to illustrate how the different head centers could all lead to abstract philosophy etc...). I think he might be 6w5, 4w3, 1w? (i think the 3 wing is strong, might even be core heart center 3w4, not sure).
You can also see he's not core 5 in the respect that other than being very intellectual, he doesn't seem to display any distinctly 5ish traits or behaviours - such as constant need for withdrawl into the inner world, struggle with being an active participant in life etc. - which makes sense if he is indeed an extrovert FeNi.
Since different types can outwardly display similar behaviors, I think when discerning enneagram type its important to aim at figuring out the person's underlying motivations and worldviews.
I always thought he was Enneatype 1 because of his overwhelming need to be right and refusal to bend on dogmatic views, e.g. using preferred gender pronouns of students. I don't see an Enneatype 6 being that dangerous, risky etc in standing by their views.
Post by simonemusic (Joseph) on Nov 10, 2017 11:58:31 GMT -5
6 seems possible at first, but it’s really the nature of the So/Sp stacking to have a pushing “against” society attitude, and also his triple idealist/triple frustration triad tritype.
I see So/Sp 1w9 147 tritype. His anger is in his body, and his energy is all gut, not head. You see 6’s with a slightly more “iffy” aura, and second guessing themselves internally. While Peterson if obviously very reactive, he has the 1w9’s deep core confidence that his values and ideas are correct, as if they are embedded into his own human genetic form. He has that kind of certainty that the body types feel in their gut. He also has the deep search for an underbelly of depth at 4, and the vast array of playful ideas at 7, using his Ni to weave that into a cohesive worldview. The 147 come together to create a frustrated person: 1 angry that the world isn’t as it should be, 4 depressed that life is never enough, and 7 anxious about sitting still in their own pain. Plus the So/Sp instinct stacking that has lofty ideals about how people are meant to bond and connect. It’s a lot of furious superego.
Post by The Doctor on Dec 30, 2017 16:08:19 GMT -5
I was going to post a thread about him, found this one, then scrolled through to see my opinions echoed.
FeNi-Ti 1w9, 4w5, 6w5 - 146 sx/sp tritype 'The Philosopher'.
CT-VR: Se eyebrow arching is very frequent. Lots of eye drifts and gaze locks as he switches between Ni and Se. He's almost constantly barraging people with his Fe rants, which are over expressed in detail because of his inferior Ti. He Fe arm waves a LOT.
Enneagram: This guy does NOT care what people think. He is utterly fearless about their reactions. There is no way he's a 6. His inferior Ti, while being an FeNi-Ti makes him seem like a 6, as FeNi-Ti is a recipe for group oriented overthinking. But, his overthinking isn't stemming from a motivation to remain safe. He is entirely focused on right and wrong, good and bad. He's a classic example of 1 anger that is clear that he's angry about all of the things he's fighting, but isn't really acting angry because anger is bad. He's constantly moving from the gut, despite always having insightful thoughts. Lastly, 1 sx is really hard to spot because it comes off with a very intense passion and earthiness that the 1 so and 1 sp stereotypically oppose. He has incorporated some values into his idealism that resonate with 8 like truth, being genuine, and accepting the hard realities of the world as fact, but these are typical of 1 sx.
Combination: He doesn't smile much because 1w9 is notoriously 'stone faced' so he's not exhibiting as much of the classic Fe smile.
Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my OPINION. Please keep that in mind.