Post by bellabellas86 on Apr 19, 2017 17:43:46 GMT -5
I don't know if Albert Camus was Fi (seems Ni) or not but I think this quote by him captures the essense of Fi: "Beauty is unbearable, drives us to despair, offering us for a minute the glimpse of an eternity that we should like to stretch out over the whole of time."
It's almost like Fi can sense or get a glimpse of an amorphous perfect "eternity" or "heaven" that it can never quite reach, but can't help trying anyway.
I would say Fi operates like an "ideal/meaning radar". It looks for the ESSENCE of things, and avoids what it finds lacking in relative value. It's goal is to attain unreachable IDEALS which it develops by evaluing worth and significance.
I made this video about a year ago, you are welcome to listen, comment, and also throw in any vultology observations you notice. I'ts unlisted for a reason so please don't share. Enjoy.
I can't really comment on your views on Fi but based on your vultology you actually seem more TiNe than FiNe to me. A few reasons why: you elicit Fe warmth plus I spotted some Fe smiles here and there and Ti flat cheeks. At the very least you do seem to be a Ji dominant.
I second Elsa's loose vote for TiNe for you. I think a lot of what you (and Jung) ascribed to Fi can apply equally to Ti in many ways. The few Ti-leads I've discovered through vultology are generally much more sensitive and emotionally attuned than many descriptions let on.
heyy! i have to third the notion above that I see quite a clear TiNe vultology.
But I also see a fair deal of Fe expression, with fairly easy access to articulation (relatively speaking, for a TiNe). You actually really remind me of my own vultology, as I also have medium levels of Fe usage.
The way you explain things, from almost a third-person perspective, is very Ti. You also try to argue for the accuracy of what you're saying from a place of subjective 'objectivity' -- for lack of a better term. You're very honest and plainly informative in your presentation and whole execution. It's very different from how Fi users speak, which is more emotionally pinched. You also have semantic language, with particularity, meticulous hands, moments of neutralization, etc.
I think you may be a TiNe-Fe... which have a general attitude of INF, but the INF attitude comes from Fe as expressed within the hierarchy of TiNe, which is more I+F in nature because it's not strong enough to be locomotive and extroverted like dom/aux Fe, being in the position of priority it is. So Fe plays a more ideological or philosophical role in the TiNe, often as a type of speculator on human nature and human ideals, rather than the more typical Fe activist.
The way you argue for a re-definition of Fi as "systemized" much like Ti, seems to allude to this intermixing. Also, the way you validate a type of insertion of normally Fe qualities into the Fi definition further feels to me like a mix of polar Fe within a Ti structure.
Post by bellabellas86 on Apr 20, 2017 10:01:13 GMT -5
Haha you guys thanks for the observations but I highly doubt I'm TiNe. In fact I think you will agree with me after seeing the big snarle I make in this video.
(p.s. those of you who read my Ni experience post, this video is NOT the real content of the event at all, its made up for the sake of explanation, but the explanation itself is based on my experience):
A few additional thoughts:
1. On your Ti description on the website you speak about emptiness in relation to Ti. I speak several times about emptiness in my videos. However, note that according to enneagram, BOTH enneagrams 4 AND 5 correlate with feeling of a void/emptiness. This is just as much related to Fi as it is to Ti. article: tap3x.net/EMBTI/page13.html
here too (also very FiNe metaphor)
not related but if you're interested..
2. Enfrail wrote: "The way you explain things, from almost a third-person perspective, is very Ti. You also try to argue for the accuracy of what you're saying from a place of subjective 'objectivity' -- for lack of a better term. You're very honest and plainly informative in your presentation and whole execution" ---
I agree, I feel that my Ti is strong relative to FiNe, but not strong enough to be my lead. O perhaps this is a developed inferior Te articulation?
3. As for Fe placid smiles - idk why I have those. But as for flat cheeks - this could be due to my structure. As you noticed my teeth were crooked in these videos (straight now thanks to invisalign) and it is known in orthontropics that crooked teeth are created when the jaw recedes down and back which also causes the maxilla to recede resulting in flat cheeks. This remains true even after alignment as that doesn't change the bone structure. Also, I did notice several infp's with flat cheeks..like leon (who I must say also comes across as Ti but identifies as FiNe and I certainely find myself relating to him)
or this infp girl
Last Edit: Apr 20, 2017 10:02:50 GMT -5 by bellabellas86
Post by bellabellas86 on Apr 22, 2017 16:23:05 GMT -5
regarding the cheeks, thought this might interest you guys..it explains why mouth breathers (I was one until recently, and there are MANY in the population, its very common) can develop flatter cheeks..
this a longer one, but its interesting. See the girl at 19:27 for an example. notice how there was a flattening under the eye area in the first picture vs the second..
Thanks for making/posting these new videos! What I see does make me more confident that you're JiNe - whether Fi or Ti is a bit ambiguous though. Your vultology would seem to indicate Ti, but your psychology seems like it could be Fi. I think what you say about how intensely emotionally affected you tend to be puts the TiNe typing into question. I've never heard of a Ti-lead with that particular experience, but then again I'm probably ignorant of so much of the variation that exists out there!
As for your vultological impression, you come across as very amiable and emotionally present, but collected and rational as well. This does strike me as Ti>Fe, but to keep an open mind, I've seen it where Fi with developed Te expression can come across like Fe in some ways. And certainly, someone with Fi can express themselves rationally. existentialistcat is someone that comes to mind. You probably know of her, but incase not:
(She believes herself to be INTP and relates with rationality, but her vultology is FiNe).
I think whichever function leads your psyche, you seem to have a unique sort of relationship to your emotional register. It's not entirely what would be expected of Ti nor of Fi.
You mention the rapid blinking signal (which we've recently formally described here). This is actually something seen in both types of Ji-leads, and from what I've seen is more amplified in those who are unilaterally developed toward their dominant function. It doesn't surprise me that you'd see this in yourself, you definitely seem Ji-lead to me.
Y'know, I had written down typings for both Leon and Donna, but I guess I didn't post them! (oh Ne absentmindedness )
But for Leon, I see a pretty clear NeFi. He's eye-centric, has intense spritely energy, and his gesticulations kind of 'flop' rather than being crisp, indicating P>J. There is Fi tension around his mouth (pulling up and down), his energy never really cools down & his speech is monotone/nasal. He's also got this sort of 'aspie' vibe, which is seen a lot in PeFi males (sometimes females too, but not as often). I'd say he's probably a form of the Introverted Extrovert subtype of NeFi, as defined in the book.
For Donna, I see TeSi-Ne. She's a strong articulator with extroverted energy, or as she describes it she's 'assertive'. She's face-centric, has continuous monotone articulation, the taught-square mouth & asymmetrical expressions of Te, and her energy never cools down. Her eyes toggle but less than would be expected if Ne>Si, even though she has a decent amount of Pe energy. What's interesting is she's the polar type of FiNe with amplified expression of Ne, so it makes sense why she might identify with the INFP type.
I didn't know Erifrail typed you as FiNe before! That's really interesting.. I'm having trouble finding the video you submitted back then, but it doesn't surprise me he'd type you that way. I think FiNe is possible, but since CT relies on the objective data of the signals and how thought processes form in real-time, I'd have to see confirming evidence to support that as a conclusion.
Last Edit: Apr 23, 2017 18:41:30 GMT -5 by Alerith
Post by bellabellas86 on Apr 24, 2017 6:14:08 GMT -5
Maybe I'm a variation of FiNe rather then of TiNe? It seems more probable to me, especially going back to my childhood I remember very distinct Fi stuff - such as standing up for bullied kids in school (despite usually being quiet and "shy" appearing), cynically telling my 5th grade teacher I hope a burglar never enters my house because I might not be so reluctant to lie (as I have a STRONG aversion to lies, until this day) that I might tell him the truth about where the money is... or being VERY stubborn regarding things I believe are immoral or unethical in some way (this is true until this day, although I have learned to relax it a bit) and so on.
Another thing that comes to mind now, very Fi-ish and true to this day - I cannot see a poor person on thes street and not give charity. I sometimes force myself not to give it, because I think I overdo it, but in many cases I end up feeling bad and going back the entire street to give the charity (which I tend to give in larger amounts than most people, because Fi just takes over. A few months ago I saw a teenager boy sitting on a bench and he seems like he was in trouble, I crossed the street even though I knew I might miss the bus by doing so, and asked if he needed help. I sat and spoke to him, apparently he ran away from home (such a Jerusalem story haha). I spoke with him about what happened to him and added him to my facebook, letting him know he can contact me if he needs something. Stuff like this. Could this be developed Fe instead of Fi? idk but doesn't seem like it to me..
existentialistcat is interesting. She does have flat cheeks, but you say FiNe? I wonder what her enneagram is. I'm thinking it might be possible the enneagram affects vultology as well. I do see INFP's who are 9 on the enneagram giving off a different vibe than the enneagram 4 ones. Have you guys tried checking?
You can't find the video because I didn't submit it, I purposely posted it on one of the videos of your youtube channel so that I can later erase the comment, which is what I did.. Unfortunately I don't even remember which one it was..
oh my, i must have been in a rush when i typed you before. sorry about that.
As for your type, i must default to the position that if vultology doesn't describe psychology, then your psychology should be given priority. that said, what you describe -- true as it is for the F > T dimension -- still doesn't really describe the Fi/Te duality, at least not in CT. So while I must retract the TiNe view if it doesn't fit your psychology, I also can't directly agree with FiNe since what FiNe is in CT is very specific and is defined also by a psychophysiological duality.
Even putting aside the matter of flat cheeks, you lack all other Te/Fi signals such as voice tone, snippy movements, seelie or unseelie energy, signals of disgust/snarling/tension, asymmetrical expressions, etc. The signals of CT aren't just arbitrarily mapped.
For example, to say someone is Fi-heavy is to say they have a selective, almost disgust-sensitive personal palate/aesthetic that pings you internally (in most situations, and consistently) as to where a certain attitude measures up against your private sense of morality. This is an example of an Fi user using Fi in real-time:
Notice how her mouth wobbles. Like if you pause her video while she's speaking over and over, every time you do her mouth is in a very different position.
Notice how her dialogue focuses on a kind of repulsion to certain social events. Fi feels a little pinch whenever something is sniffed out as being morally impure. That comes with a reaction of the muscles of the mouth, to rise upward toward the nose. This happens automatically as they speak or at any time they are thinking intently on moral issues. It also activates when they feel deep private resonance with values.
But what I mean to say is that evidence of Fi is seen in its selectivity, not in outward or proactive expressions (E). Fi is, like Ti, a subtractive process. What that means is that it's an error-checker, it's not a generator like Ne or Se. It's like an "editor" more than it is a writer. Nothing about Ti or Fi, as a function in isolation, goes *outward* toward the world; it is an introverted process. So you see Fi's effects by it's nitpickiness like the above, not by deeds themselves.
Fi is by itself not outwardly warm/generous or caring; it is outwardly logistically (Te) caring and internally warm/empathetic (Fi). The Fe/Ti duality is the one that is outwardly warm/sympathetic and internally neutralized. So in both cases, Je is the one that we see in locomotion. That's why Fi users of all varieties are more economic in their approach to humanitarian work, while Fe users are more charismatic and personable in their approach to humanitarian work (on average, and with all other things being equal).
Post by bellabellas86 on Apr 24, 2017 18:59:41 GMT -5
So I am INFP in mbti, INFJ in socionics, and INTP in CT. Lovely.
Well, she's making a passionate speech about painful topics, so she's more animated. I don't see much difference between pausing on my videos and pausing on other infp videos (that are not in the state of "passioante speech") As for lack of seelie energy in me, I've actually been refered to as seeming like a fairy before:)
I am trying to understand what exactly you mean by pinging. I found this failed video attempt of the Fi explanation video, is what I do at any of these: 0:00 0:45 0:23 0:37 1:25 2:00 what you call pinging? Trying to understand because I don't see this clearly in all FiNe's..
My voice is naturally high pitched (used to be made "fun" for it), you can sort of hear it in this video. When I go on explaning mode, I sense my voice going lower (Te?).
what about the puppeteer-hands thing? I saw vids of intp's in whom this was very strongly evident were as in my case not so much puppetlike, more straight or at least not "all over the place", or am I wrong about this observation?
"Fi is by itself not outwardly warm/generous or caring; it is outwardly logistically (Te) caring and internally warm/empathetic (Fi). The Fe/Ti duality is the one that is outwardly warm/sympathetic and internally neutralized. " -
I relate to Fi-Te here^
I read your posts on the TiNe forum to better understand Ti, and I am not relating to the way you guys describe the function or your experience of it.
Perhaps the signals the body gives are more susceptible to change than you assume, due to other factors that play in? Too bad I cant find any old videos of myself right now. Something tells me I went through a gradual change. (my voice would be one good example of this, it has really changed its pitch with the years)
Anyway, I really think there is something odd going on here and so I am going to keep exploring this. Hope you guys to do the same (so you don't turn into another mbti/socionics which would be a shame, this has more potential).
Last Edit: Apr 24, 2017 19:01:55 GMT -5 by bellabellas86
So I am INFP in mbti, INFJ in socionics, and INTP in CT. Lovely.
Hehe. I really appreciate your open mind and generosity toward all this. I hope to offer the same as well, and I apologize if I ever seem fixated. I may have my reservations, but I think that won't be a limiter to truly listening to your views earnestly.
Likewise others on the forum have slightly varying views (i.e. belief in an 8 function model) and it keeps us investigating. I don't pretend to know everything, and I think it's good to explore different avenues. The one thing CT ppl have in common is that we share a base platform from which to evaluate ideas with some objectivity. So there's lots of potential for consensus and for genuine research, progress and insights to arise.
-- I have to get my thoughts together but i'll reply to your other points too in a bit.
So, ok, the following is just my attempt to explain the logic I personally have about this, for what it's worth. Since your latest vid is very similar in some concepts to the first one you posted, I'll reply to the themes in them together.
I believe most of what you say about value in truth applies broadly to judgment as a whole. Value is what we pick out from the "everything" and see it as having some type of importance. And that can be a lot of things unrelated to the ethical question.
One could say "value" is anything that relates, with any relevance, to any element of the human experience. That could be truth/understanding, logic, information, excitement/amusement, love, or even the basics like sexuality and hunger. All those things are valuable to humans.
The placement of these things within value structures or hierarchies is something all four J functions do. What I think differentiates Fi (and Fe) from the other two is that value is assigned based on a concept's relationship to the question of life and death. (or more microscopically, to pleasure/pain, good/evil)
"The higher they are in the hierarchy, they become ideals"
Yes, that's precisely right. But again this isn't an operation of Fi. This association between Fi = personal values, is a false caricature perpetuated by the MBTI community.
This is J in general selecting its idealistic cornerstone. For example, the apex value for Ti is often the quest for axiomatic truth. And authenticity + honesty are very common sub-axiomatic ideals for Ti to come to. One could say Ti necessarily makes value judgments between false/skewed/irrational information and rational/logical information. And so it values correctness and depreciates lies, based on the logical principle not an ethical one. This judgment is more a matter of truth-seeking, not tied necessarily or directly to a conclusion about the damaging reality of lies on other people's lives. Though certainly that's also true at times. Your value system seems to pivot around truth, honesty and authenticity, which actually suggests more parity with Ti than Fi.
..because they're both introverted functions that are judging decision-making functions. So that's in general now because introverted feeling is an internal/introverted function there's this, it's very fixed (and it's a judging function) there's a strong fixation on your ideals whatever you believe in whatever you've come to understand in life that of the most value. Freedom, truth, a certain of faith, a certain political system that you believe... Marxism or capitalism a socialism, you believe that one of these is the best system for the world that it would forward humanity in the best way possible..
Here again, believing a certain system is more correct is something J does in general and this isn't an Fi specific quality. All J functions are systemic, and all of them stand up for their beliefs or ideals, and all of them have individual convictions behind them.
But the last part about how it would forward humanity is when it does start to become an ethics-specific question, because this is when the question of value is specifically directed at the somatic; the human/social/life question. So I would say Fi is an assessor of value within the topic of life/death specifically, and the equivalent of 'truth' to an ethical function is its harmony to, or uplifting of, the Living.
In its most pure form, the ethical principle actually doesn't care for truth. The analog to 'accuracy' for the ethical function is how aligned an idea or notion is to somatic preservation, whether that notion is true or false by any sort of objective or rational viewpoint. And this is why the most ethically one-sided people also tend to either anthropomorphize reality or submit to some type of ephemeral, deistic belief system.
It resonates with the ethical principle to believe in Life being a fundamental property of the universe. And this often translates into a belief that Consciousness is in everything (for example), that everything is alive, or that the life-force of a person remains active after death. These ideas place Life in the axiomatic position at the top of the "ideal"-architecture, reasoning backwards to explain the other events of life, and are not being modulated by the opposite perspective (T).
That said, you don't seem to be in either extreme. You don't value reason with such sterility that you 'feel nothing' or care for nothing, yet your pursuits and ambitions for clarity/truth seem more directed by a logical principle than an ethical one to me; at least by how CT defines ethics and logic.
In short, I find your psychology itself is not directly in opposition to the TiNe evaluation. Your amplitude of feeling (especially as you describe your childhood) is a questionable point, but the amplitude of your feeling itself doesn't tell us if it's Fi or Fe. We find that out through the mechanics at work, and the metabolism of information. And so what I can see of you appears to support Fe as the function from which your convictions emerge, while at core you seek for purity and seem motivated toward a kind of centeredness/authenticity/truth that is to me more characteristic of Ti.