Eda: The Myth of Order and Life

These ideas may clarify an important point about Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi.

I noticed the Fe Hero tries to attain a sort of raw agency or power-in-the-abstract that can be used for freely chosen personal acts of meaning creation. The Star Game is a really pure example of that, but all the Fe Hero situations seem to sort of work that way.

I don't think Te works this way at all, and the Myth of the King for Te in Part 2 may overemphasize the role of Edar as a powerful individual making decisions from the big chair.

Edar's keen awareness of practical constraints and mechanical consequences means that the Fe Hero's style of raw agency cannot exist. The King is really a servant of impersonal order, and he acts with power only because he acts in accordance with the way the world works. The King serves the kingdom or else stops being King of anything. The CEO serves the company or else is driven out of business. I'd almost rather call it The Myth of Order or The Myth of the Copybook headings (relevant poem here: www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_copybook.htm).

This article, Meditations on Moloch, outlines a more Te/Fi type of meaning anxiety to contrast with the Fe/Ti ones described above. slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

Meditations on Moloch explores the idea that the Te order of things might be inherently hostile to Fi values in the long run. This is not anxiety about the existence or definition of meaning, but rather its preservation in the face of an impersonal order that follows totally different rules. In the Fe/Ti version of things, a great Hero might arise to overturn these negative trends in the world, but in the Te/Fi version, acting against the impersonal order necessarily means that you do not act effectively.

Cold, inexorable machinery swallowing up precious souls is a very Fi /Te sort of nightmare. An unbalanced Edin may deny the Te impersonal order or consider it evil to use it for any purpose. An unbalanced Edar may declare service of the natural machinery to be the only good. To develop both requires compromise, acting within Edar so as to protect a home for Edin.

Oh right, makes sense that Copybook has a very Pi skew, with Edar's default Je orientation relating more to active and goal-oriented behavior.

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Also, this hypertext book meaningness.com/ seems to fit very closely into the Fe/Ti dynamic above. It did not completely make sense before seeing this stuff here. The book examines views on meaning as a tension between eternalism (belief in fixed inherent external meaning) and nihilism. It argues that each is deeply unsatisfactory and tries to develop a flexible, participatory alternative.

I don't have this function pairing, thus my explanation of it prolly isn't going to be as accurate as that of Ti/Fe. My thought is that perhaps I can provide a basis for further refinement by you guys that do have Te/Fi ^^ Some great discussion so far, btw Gomux and Auburn


Te: Extroverted Delineation - Order; The Applicator of Organization in context of Coherent/Incoherent
(as defined: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coherent)

"I am consciousness striving to organize Existence.. I will Control it."

I am the Supreme Organizer of my reality. I will dictate the best place and function for all things, developing strategies for efficiency with the resources available. Efficiency - the external manifestation of alignment to Correctness - is my Highest Aim. Efficiency is Power; Agency, the ability to Move the World in Accordance with One's Will. With this Power, I quell chaos so that the infrastructure of Life may be preserved.

-- Te is essentially pure Logos; logistical thought and agency. This is my own speculation - although it may have been expressed by others elsewhere - but I think that the mechanism of logical thought likely arose as an adaptation in humans in order that we might better utilize the resources in our environment. This may indicate some period of difficulty during our evolutionary path, where those who could take control over their environment in order to organize methodologies and/or infrastructure were most likely to survive. The notion of control or power is very related to logos in general, with both Te and Ti the impetus seems to be about seeing the truth of reality, ultimately in order to meet it in the most adaptive way possible.


Fi: Internal Life-force - Sentiment; the Interpreter of Meaning in context of Right/Wrong

"I am life Existing.. I am Caught Up in it."



I Am. And my Existence, the existence of the Living, is what matters. Life is the Supreme Meaning, what is Right by Life is what should be done, and I align myself to this truth. Each should be allowed Existence, Each is one part of the sacred reality of Life, their expression a note in Gaia's choir. And Each should be preserved, their living self respected and exalted as precious.

-- As far as I can tell, the myth of Edin is the abstraction of the most basic and general instinct; the impulse for self-preservation. The emotional register interprets the experience of the body/self as the encompassing factor, that which brings about all other experience and meaning, and so the existence of the living self is seen as most vital. The fact of empathy - especially the existence of the sympathetic nervous system and its egoless, undifferentiated notion of connection to all else - is also something likely factored into the experience of the emotional register. This subliminal notion may be what extends the myth of Edin beyond the self to consider all life as worthy of existence and respect. We see indications of this level of the myth, where all life is connected in a sacred web by mystical energy. Auburn , your post about James Cameron and the Avatar movie is a perfect example of this, as is Bjork's The Gate ^above.

That Fe-Te antagonism, could it be what's up with new calls for a President Winfrey in 2022? If Trumpism is a modern manifestation of Edar, what of the new Oprah'ism? Is that the cultural hunger for the "hero" after running into an unpleasant experience with the King/CEO?

mikesilb - Right.

I think partly you're coming up against the bias of this online demographic. ^^
Which is, to some degree, a projection and demonization. You could also call it an ungratefulness.
It's easy to criticize the negatives in something.

Speaking just for myself (as dispassionately (about my biases) as i can), I've held an antagonistic relationship all my life to labor/production, responsibility and 'work' in general. It is not a rational thing. And it goes beyond laziness. What it means to have repressed Je is... you see it as a life-sapping force. To 'slave away' your precious life and spiritual energy.

So working at a 9-5 will feel like a prison, even if you initially liked it. This is what von Franz calls the problem of the Puer Aeternus. This passage in particular hits home for me:



Part of the frustrated energy reviser types will feel against Je-heaviness is due to this archetypal relationship.
Especially if Je types have condemned them over the course of their life for their incompetence.

Indeed, the moral character of the Puer is:

Impulsive
Imprudent
Ignorant/Naive
Young
Impetuous

Whereas, the positive aspect of Je's moral character is:

Parental
Provider
Sustainer
Protector
Guide
Mentorship

The archetypal relationship the puer has to the king is that of a child to a parent/adult. In the worst case it's one of 'acting out' against the 'Man' for the sake of refusing any sort of (self) control. Everything in life that demands a consideration of the 'necessary' -- is a hindrance to what 'could be'. The simplicity of life being robbed by responsibility -- the loss of playful exploration -- is eternally jarring.

I think a more unbiased and level-headed evaluation of some of the gifts Je (Te in particular) has given us can be summed up in videos like:

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Still, I mention this because, this won't be the first or last time Te or any other function will be demonized. Nor do I wish to take the Political Correct approach of... cancelling out and discouraging this bias. Repression is not a good thing. Te systems have caused legitimate pain/suffering to many people's lives, which deserve honest acknowledgement. But they've also caused us to develop into a golden age of progress/innovation unlike we've ever seen. So much security we take for granted!

Maybe if members here can understand their biases, myself included, we can work to grow as people in the areas that are hardest for us to operate in. o,o

My personal opinion is that all functions have a dark side, yea. Fe can be very dark and suffocating with its social control too. I look forward to discussions maturing over time about the two sides of each process.

I didn't mean to stereotype Te as inherently negative. The wave that has seen Trump's rise to power has been "typed" on this board as a cultural manifestation/the influence of the Edar myth on the collective consciousness. Someone said its modern manifestation is the CEO or the American dream. Now, assuming this is true, Trump's presidency having ridden on the wave of the rise of this "spirit", has been a negative experience. That has more to do with Trump himself, the anatagonistic polarised politics of modern US and other things. It is not the Edar myth itself but situational. What I'm playfully suggesting, is that after this jarring experience, those who demonize Trumpism may themselves be under the influence of the rising of another myth, the Fe hero. That doesn't mean Fe would do better or that a healthy version of Te with the right amount of acceptance/respect from the media wouldn't be amazing.

The West's success vis-a-vis all other cultures/civilizations in so many areas can be credited to the disproportionate influence of Te in the culture, IMO. So, no. To the contrary, Te is what I lack and have always desired to have (some good portion, enough to get things done that I want done). I am envious of individuals who have it even as I incessantly complain about having to navigate its systems. 

Haha! ..actually, yes. Isn't that ironic.

This is all an expression of what Jung called enantiodromia. An extreme produces the other extreme; the pendulum swings.

PC culture is a sort of adaptive Fe maneuver (seelie Fi to a lesser extent).
It is indeed Maternal, in that negative and suffocating way. The over-protective mother (also known as the dark mother, or devouring mother).
Jordan Peterson's discussion on the subject is great.