I'm curious if anyone happens to have any thoughts about this: I'm wondering if now that we know our CT, if it makes any sense to 'reverse engineer' how the 'inferior function' grip activity (as applied by people such as Naomi Quenk) works for our given CT (and NOT for the MBTI type that we might have thought ourselves to be)?
This has potential to open very interesting doors of insight since it allows us to access certain blind spots that we may not have identified from a typological angle (since we may have assumed ourselves to be a different type) and to utilize them to access certain shadow-like activities in ourselves (that by definition of the psychological/Jungian 'shadow', we would tend to disown in ourselves).
Are you saying like....our weakest function whatever it is, or the most unconscious one, that we could be in the grip of that function?
No, I'm not even saying our weakest/most-unconscious (although we could also apply it to that). I'm actually saying that based on whatever CT we are designated as having, that will automatically create a default function hierarchy. I tend to think that we can apply this hierarchy to view whichever one is 4th/inferior and to determine how well that 4th function is affected as a result of our dominant (based on our CT). I was really surprised to notice how much I am thrown off by my sudden displays of Fi (but not in a stable way [that my subtype implies] but in more of a 'grip' way). It showed me that even though I have an Fi subtype, I still display Fi grip behavior where I feel out of control by my own inner emotionality and sensitivity rather than when I use Te to aim for greater control of my life and the environment. This realization was eye-opening for me, and I was wondering if this is something useful on a psychological level that we all can apply to our CTs. So this was why I brought this topic up.
Last Edit: Dec 23, 2017 23:49:02 GMT -5 by mikesilb
Post by simonemusic (Joseph) on Dec 24, 2017 8:12:56 GMT -5
mikesilb Oh I understand. Yeah I’m not sure how my Ni conflicts with Se. One of the things that happens to me is that I make really quick assumptions about things sometimes without caring to gather more evidence. I’ve made some constellation of associations in my head and I just leave it at that rather than taking in more data because there’s nothing interesting left to take in. The sense of knowing taking precedence over the sense of exploration but not always doing it properly. Sometimes it is done well though so I don’t know. But I don’t think I’ve ever felt in the grip of Ni where my sense of inner knowing or any other facet of Ni has put stress on me.
mikesilb One of the things that happens to me is that I make really quick assumptions about things sometimes without caring to gather more evidence. I’ve made some constellation of associations in my head and I just leave it at that rather than taking in more data because there’s nothing interesting left to take in. The sense of knowing taking precedence over the sense of exploration but not always doing it properly.
simonemusic (Joseph), I actually think that what you are describing above is the use of your Ni subtype. In this case, you are actually making a choice to not gather more data (Se) in favor of being content with the associations that you have made (Ni). So that sounds like a case where you are consciously preferring Ni over doing further data gathering and exploring (Se). As a polarized Se-dom, I can picture many doing that. (And in my case, I am applying my polar Fi when I am very consciously paying attention to what I value, what I like, and making decisions based on this.....that often runs contrast to my dominant Te).
Everything in the above paragraph is not what I'm thinking of in terms of the inferior grip of Ni. Basically, in your case (as a SeFi), Se would be consistently choosing to take more of a direct, literal route to things and to not allow Ni to usurp the practical, moment-to-moment power of Se. However, this leads to Ni needing to rear its head by providing more (subconscious) messages to pay more attention to what lies underneath and what is deeper (Ni) rather than what is directly in front of you (Se). Then a grip event could happen where Ni applies so much pressure that it actually pulls quite you dramatically away from what is happening in the present moment towards deeper, unconscious, or heavy conceptual matter in a very compensatory way.
I have no idea if what I just wrote applies to you (as an Se-dom) and it would be very interesting to see how well (or not well) this fits your experience as an Se-dom.
In my case, I was shocked at how I actually do use Te to push down Fi (in a highly covert kind of way). And it was especially surprising since I still value Fi so largely that I consider it to be a subtype. It is like I consciously adore Fi and want to apply Fi to the fullest (as a Fi subtype) but then I still have this highly subconscious, hidden way in which my Te really wants to run the show and where I do not want to constantly emote Fi (perhaps in inappropriate or self-indulgent ways). So this leads to an interesting (possibly love-hate) relationship with Fi, that I honestly never knew that I had.
So, I'm curious if any of this happens for you regarding Ni given the SeFi typing, or if this is somewhat absent for you. Let me know what comes up. Thanks!
Auburn, I know that you are really busy now about taking the model to the next level (and thank goodness for that!). I'm very curious about any feedback that you might have about whether or not you think that concepts like "inferior grip episodes" cross-apply to CT, and whether either these grip episodes apply either to a) the 4th function within the CT stack and/or b) the function within the CT-derived function stack that is least developed (irrespective of where in the stack that function happens to be located).
I have no idea about whether I'm making a bigger deal about this connection than it really is, or if it is something that seriously adds psychological value to the CT model. If you have any thoughts about this, I'd love to hear them!
Still busy, yea ^^; Making lots of progress. Gonna try to have something to show by newyears, hopefully.
I haven't read Quenk's book in a while, but do remember thinking she had very great insights. I think it's true to some degree. But CT has illuminated me to the fact that many people's polar functions are integrated into consciousness. In fact, polarization is not entirely uncommon.
At the same time, the antagonism the functions can have is quite legitimate to me - but it's caused by suppression. To me "the grip" is the result of a repressed function peeking its head out unbidden, or yanking the individual into a stupor because it is forcing an acknowledgement of itself. The grip seems to me like a stage of individuation. One clear example of this I see is Jordan Peterson's account of himself here, with his Ti.
He ended up in Ti's grip for years. That's the sort of thing that can happen, because of enantiadromia. Now, once the repressed function has been brought into consciousness and has been recognized/accepted by the rest of the psyche -- it stops highjacking the body. Now Peterson's quite a beast, and wields Ti like a pro.
Also I'm not sure why, but some people can develop their polar without this gripping individuation process. It may be because they never went "too far" toward their dominant in the first place (i.e. an ego-fixed dominant function). Hence no backlash was experienced.
Another related thought is that levels of emotional stress/health (i.e. your score along the neuroticism spectrum) likely have more to do with whether the polar manifests in a gripping way or not. I would expect that people with a flat affect would be more prone to it.
TL;DR - I think the 'grip' is real and I think what Quenk describes is fairly accurate, but its just not something experience by virtue of a function being in the polar position. It has more to do with:
- Whether it is repressed or not (ego-fixed dominant function) - Whether a person has emotional/mental stress or sensitivity (flat affect)
This has potential to open very interesting doors of insight since it allows us to access certain blind spots that we may not have identified from a typological angle
Agreed. I'd love to hear more about people who do have experiences in the grip of an unconscious function.
If you've really worked on your development, you can even have "conscious <--> conscious" but you can't have "ego-fixed <--> conscious" because the ego fixation on a function necessarily depreciates the qualities of the opposite. The negative effects of functions come out when they're unconscious, but subconscious functions are not really threatening as much as they're just blind spots. I also think that when we are born, our lower 3 functions are subconscious (but not as far down as unconscious). Even in 4 year-olds, you can see them use all their functions, but subconsciously. Life events are what cause the shunning away of parts of our personality, and their resulting backlash.
That's all I have time to comment on, sorry mike. Also sorry if these posts are incoherent as I haven't proof-read them. >.>
I think the 'grip' is real and I think what Quenk describes is fairly accurate, but its just not something experience by virtue of a function being in the polar position. It has more to do with:
- Whether it is repressed or not (ego-fixed dominant function) - Whether a person has emotional/mental stress or sensitivity (flat affect)
Auburn , I think that this makes a lot of sense (after mulling it over for a few days). I think that either in order for these grip experiences to happen, there needs to be
A. either function repression (and I could see using the simplified MBTI model [clearly erroneous in its nature] that many MBTI-certified practitioners [like Quenk] would naturally apply the grip episode to function #4/polar but that is because according to that model, repression happens directly to that function. We know from CT that #4/polar does NOT necessarily imply repression at that functional position)
B. natural stress that causes over/under exertion of a given function at the expense of a healthy or average level of health (i.e., a highly fixated individual of any Enneagram type).
Just as a sidebar, I could see the topic of the 'Three Instincts' and its relationship to the Enneagram system to essentially correlate to this. Essentially, the idea here is that the Enneagram fixation will distort the qualities of the most used/favored instinctual class (which is kinda like Case B above). In addition, the most neglected instinctual class will be repressed and will need considerable practice (kinda like working out with increasing level of weights) and will be subject to shadow/grip experiences due to its own repression (kinda like Case A above). Basically, the middle instinct will lie somewhere in the middle of experiencing the intense fixation of instinct #1 and the neglect/repression/shadow of instinct #3, and can at times actually have a more balanced perspective due to taking the middle ground between instincts #1 and #3.
I think that this makes sense that over-utilizing a given function to the state of stress/fatigue can create some grip experiences (as you documented in the 'flat affect' thread) and repression of a function can also create some grip experiences. I agree that whether it happens at the polar spot is more of an artifact of the larger issue of whether that function has been suppressed.
BTW, I really valued how you articulated your ideas in your response to me about this topic! It gave me GREAT food for thought, and I actually needed some time to consider how it naturally fit me. I will probably expand on that aspect below...
Last Edit: Dec 28, 2017 15:45:41 GMT -5 by mikesilb
So what triggered this whole thread was that somehow I found a novel relationship between myself and having grip-Fi experiences (as a TeNi). However, I know that as an Fi-subtype, my development of Fi should be pretty solid (and I consider myself having both conscious Fi and conscious Te....I am convinced especially based on your lower post, Auburn , that I am not ego-level at either Fi nor at Te [and neither at Ni nor Se ]).
I actually wonder whether my acknowledgement of Fi-grip resulted from an increase of Te usage...where I am starting to consciously OWN my Te as a means to keep me in command of whatever I am aiming to do. As neither a Enneagram 3 nor Enneagram 8 (which I believe would be more prone to directly see Je in a conscious/ego way), this is something that needed development to to maintain. I could see how I value my Te to objectively view reality in a highly object-oriented/here-and-now kind of way and I am applying that towards making constructive decisions about how to move forward and get priorities met throughout my day. As a child, I probably had to think less about that because others could make many decisions for me (and life was sooooo much easier). But now, I can't afford to let others make decisions for me as that pulls me farther away from what really needs to get done.
I find it interesting, because when I thought that I was an INFP, I related very well to the Te-grip (of suddenly getting very controlling/assertive/bullying when under stress, while usually [with my more receptive and friendly Enneagram 692 tritype], I would usually try to pour oil on troubled waters and to make nice with other people). So, I think that all this implies that my Te:Fi ratio is becoming more even.
I also think that what I considered as an Fi-grip was probably more of a 'mini-grip' experience. I don't believe that it would even be at the level of a grip experience for a person who has ego-level Te and unconscious/subconscious Fi. The amplitude of such a grip experience is dramatically different, I think.
All this makes me want to consider Se a little more, as that happens to be my lowest-developed conscious function....and whether the amplitude of such Se-grip experiences would be higher than the others. That is something to consider (although I know that it still would not be as large as if I had truly unconscious Se....which I don't have).
So much to think about with this lovely model, lol!
Last Edit: Dec 28, 2017 15:48:02 GMT -5 by mikesilb
So, to follow up with this topic, I've been investigating how Se-related grip experiences apply to me (since Se is my lowest-developed function...subconscious-level for me). I found a great video by Carolyn Zaikowski that I heavily relate to about this topic:
It just demonstrates to me even more obviously the importance of function repression (rather than simply being placed at position #4) as a core motivation as for why grip events can happen. The material that she talks about here applies so well to my life.