In this thread I want to make a discussion about the validity of "Ne naive eyes" or "Ne eyes in sockets" signal, i'm not talking about the movements of the eyes but the quality of the eyes itself, i think this can make some problems in the visual reading. Watching photos of high Ne and Se users i see how some Se users doesn't have the characteristic "piercing eyes", they seems to remain inside the eyelids in a similar way of the Ne eyes. I made some images to make some confrontations between high Se and high Ne users, joining them according to their J functions: i start with Ti/Fe users:
Jim Carrey (NeTi) Neutral state Smile Scowl
Brendan Fraser (TiSe)
The eyes are quite similar in the anatomical composition, in the neutral state and in the smile the eyes presents the same behavior, in my opinion the biggest difference is in the scowl, the one from Jim Carrey is inquiring, the one from fraser is exploring. Now, some Fi/Te users:
Daniel Radcliffe (SeFi)
Robin Williams (NeFi)
again, in the neutral state and in the smile the differences are minimal, the biggest one is in the scowl, Radcliffe presents the "pierce" quality and Williams presents the "concentrated" stare.
final consideration: in my opinion the eyes muscles are a little example of everyone functions, for example, my eyes in a relaxed state can seem pretty piercy like a Se user, but when i smile they became more affable and soft, the only way to see the functions is to watch videos and se the eyes in motion, or alternatively: what'cha the scowl!
Hmm... for me the difference is quite obvious. However, it is a problem with visual reading, we're different persons, so we can see different things.
In those pictures, the high-Se's have bigger eyes and they kinda bulge from their sockets ^^ whereas high-Ne's have more squinty eyes (not all of course but on a general basis). Well, high-Se's have squinty eyes too when they smile but they do keep their intensity while doing so.
Last Edit: Jun 6, 2013 14:44:37 GMT -5 by peppergirl
Yes. Unfortunately, I can only help make things so obvious... =/
The fact of the matter is, VR can be systematically quantified up to about some 80%. But the last 20% or so is nuance. That's to say, for the majority of people it can be seen quite clear with a small level of training (like a week or less). But for the final stretch of people -- it's really the work of expertise.
And that's really how it is in all disciplines/skills. There's a general 'technique', but what makes someone an expert is practice and the ability to see the very fine differences. Via exposure to hundreds of different people.
The topic of the mind/psyche is, I've found, awfully complex and interwoven. I find it to be incredible that VR works to the extent it does, and can so quickly give us insight into the psyches of others -- but there's also a part where it takes considering them as a whole person. Try to see how their life has formed them the way they are and caused them to utilize their processes in a peculiar way.
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edit: But if you guys can help bridge that gap further by defining some of the more subtle cues that would be awesome! CTVR isn't finished evolving just yet, I think. Really it's just getting started and there's plenty of room for refinement.
Edit: I don't think those images of Robin Williams really capture him properly. He's a collage I just pieced together quickly from a google search which shows his Ne in much more clarity:
if you watch my eyes in a relaxed state you can't see clearly Ne, in this photo in particular isn't evident but i can look like a Ni user sometimes, when i smile my eyes become more squeezed, and like i said before, the scowl is evidently the Si type (my scowl is relly heavy seen live .__. i have a very protrusive eyebrows).
now a little from Elvis Presley:
in most of the photos he doesn't absolutely seem a Ni user like he actually is, he can seem a FiNe like someone said in the second pratice thread.
peppergirl yeah , my point isn't the completely devaluation of the anatomical presentation of the Ne eyes, i'm simply pointing out that cannot be an important meter to take in consideration, the variables are too often present in the people, and base the VR on that signal in particular the risk is to mislead everything, i consider that more like an icing on the cake.
I don't think those images of Robin Williams really capture him properly. He's a collage I just pieced together quickly from a google search which shows his Ne in much more clarity:
I chose the photos where he was less "Neish" to make a better comparation between the two , robin williams other than have an heavy Ne is old in the majority of the pictures in the internet, so i took the ones where he seemed less tired or "naive"
edit: But if you guys can help bridge that gap further by defining some of the more subtle cues that would be awesome! CTVR isn't finished evolving just yet, I think. Really it's just getting started and there's plenty of room for refinement.
regarding this, i was thinking for a sistem to make videos shooting only the eyes, but i don't have the tools to make it >-<
Heron, I enjoy your post-creations.. like these ones and the ones you engage in analyzing characters' ct, also that one where you posted your face Ti-disbelief mouth, etc., etc.
Post by peppergirl on Jun 10, 2013 14:37:25 GMT -5
Hey Heron and @morsecode I understand why you thought I was Se, I think the dark circles around my pupils made them appear sharp. I've seen that in other Ne's too sometimes and at first it confused me, so we must be careful about little details like that ^^ If you watch my video, you can more clearly see the difference.
Post by peppergirl on Jun 10, 2013 14:47:21 GMT -5
Here, I have a difficulty typing her (Audrey Fleurot), at first I thought TiSe, then NeTi... Her eyes look kinda fixed and alert but she often blinks and they seem "light"...
Elvis' eyes are pretty confusing for me. Take a look through google images; half of the pictures show his eyes with the top eyelid resting on his eye, and the other half don't. I thought Ni eyelids were supposed to remain fixed at that latitude. Also, his eyes seem to be in their sockets to me. I also see the Si "drooping edges".
Post by peppergirl on Jun 11, 2013 18:36:19 GMT -5
His eyes look Se, they remind me thoses of my brother's. You see, often Se eyes look like they almost bulge from their sockets while Ne eyes stay more within them. Also they don't look soft but intense, in the first pic he looks very alert, Ne would look more "surprised"...