explaining more the simmetryes behind the various "graphics" i made:
Alphabetical Clock-Wise Order I though a way where you can spin the circle and find the same function (despite the introversion/extroversion) in the same position as the other quadras. I liked the fact that the opposite types are in opposite positions.
Function Quality Order I liked that much more than the other before because other than mantaining the same concept (the clockwise order) it is more symbolic, the "Explorer leads" is in the external section of the circle, the "Worldview leads" are in the internal section of the circle, and the judging pairs are in between, because their judgments are based on what the individual perceives. I thought that order reflected the meaning itself of the functions.
Function Quality Order - Simmetrical This is identical to the one before, with a difference: i changed the order of some J function, making possible for all the others to use them like vertices of one square. This is the one i prefer.
Compass Up This was more for fun, i called it compass, because the compass leads are in the upper position of their own circle, just because when you use a compass you care abouth the position of the north. I don't like it because if you spin it, you don't find the same type of function in the same order.
Ahah, it's funny that we have huge difficulties to set up a name for the quadras... i remember, the first time i came accross with mbti, that i thought the temperament thing was completely messed up. So i actually invented the quadras even before i knew socionics , mantaining the temperament thing but for each quadra. this is a picture i created months ago (notice the question marks for the quadra names):
Translation of the italian words (up/down): Intuitives, Thinkers, Sensitives, Feelers.
I think we have to find symbolic names, but not too much to be incomprehensible. I was about to propose the alchemic elements for the names of the quadra but... no, i don't want CT to be compared with Pod's Lair. I made a little research, and apparently the 4 has tons of symbologies (the 4 gospels, the 4 worlds of the sephiroth, the sacrality in the indo-american cultures etc) but i don't think none of those represent clearly something helpfull for what we are searching. But let's keep with this brainstorming, sooner or later we will find something magnificent
Post by ayoungspirit on Jul 21, 2013 7:23:48 GMT -5
Heron : I made a little research, and apparently the 4 has tons of symbologies (the 4 gospels, the 4 worlds of the sephiroth, the sacrality in the indo-american cultures etc) but i don't think none of those represent clearly something helpfull for what we are searching. But let's keep with this brainstorming, sooner or later we will find something magnificent
What about the cardinal directions ? And then, we could attribute one knight of the round table to each individual type ! Oh, I think I get brainstorming !
Post by peppergirl on Jul 21, 2013 15:13:55 GMT -5
Anyway it seems Erifrail and Alerith already invented celtic names for the quadra? Are you afraid it would look too mystic? At least it would fit the cetic knots... So I guess you're looking for more "serious" scientific names? It's a pity that we must find so-called scientific names to appear serious when most scientific discoverers were often more imaginative and poetic than literally attached to official "serious" knowledge. But people are like that, they need to be impressed by names and the reassuring appearance of "science" whereas it's something constantly changing if not revolutionizing itself periodically.
Post by ayoungspirit on Jul 21, 2013 15:30:39 GMT -5
peppergirl : you are very right, but again, I believe it is a part of the Cognitive Type agenda to enter the scientific realm, and this realm is manifested in the general opinion by this specific illusion, so it would not be unreasonable to think that being a better royalist than the king would help in the end. Although, continuing with the Celtic motive is a possibility as well, especially now that the Timthriallta Maitrís is a part of it. It would probably appeal to another crowd, the one who is more traditionally concern with personality typing, without sacrificing too much the former interest. Whatever, it seems TiNe's can't help themselves in this regard
Representing infinity and the answers to questions that humanity isn't prepared to be sucked into due to being intimidated by gamma's no-bullshit approach to life. #okthen #fairenough
Also representing other quadras' conscious/unconscious desire to kiss gamma's black hole and find absolution in eternity. *the rest of the world surrendering to the real deal of the true badasses of the universe*
Last Edit: Jul 21, 2013 18:29:15 GMT -5 by morsecode
Quadras do exist, in the sense that it's possible to group the 16 types into four groups based on their function-pairs. The similarities they may have to each other is, from my experience, a little different from how Socionics describes them but there is some truth in it. I wanna share some general notes on some of the concepts I've I've seen to be true.
Ti/Fe is a more democratic, collective, and judicious function pairing. Te/Fi is a more quickly decisive, deliberate and logistical function pairing. Ne/Si, due to its naivete and optimism is a very merry function pairing. Ni/Se, due to the sense of inevitability it senses, and convergent reality is a more serious pairing.
This makes Ti/Fe+Ne/Si types very childish in the fact that their sense of perception is naive, and their sense of judgment is based on collective harmony. This makes Te/Fi+Ni/Se types the least childish since they perceive reality more realistically, and their sense of judgment is logistical.
Alpha / TiNe, NeTi, SiFe, FeSi
I've seen it in many "Alpha" types, the complete inability to manage reality realistically. Alpha types are the most prone to delusion, due to the way they perceive and make decisions. Ironically I'm a part of this quadra, and perhaps that's part of why I can see this. Having Ne/Si, as described in the function descriptions, make it had to know anything with certainty. Ti/Fe makes it so they use Ti to construct personally-consistent and internally consistent systems which may not reflect reality but which are perfect within their isolated parameters. It only matters that it be conceptually true. Ti strives to remove conceptual dissonance the compass seeks to ensure that the opinions the user has on the data are ones with internal purity. And Fe makes it so that when it comes to the dynamics and movements of the world, they utilize not dispassion, but interpersonal means of handling those dynamics. However, Ti can potentially have a concept that aligns with reality (though it isn't a requirement of Ti to have it align, it can) and this can be used to be more useful. But at large these types are filled with good intentions, moreso than ability.
Beta / NiFe, FeNi, SeTi, TiSe
These types have a collective and democratic way of managing reality, but their perception is on average more consistent with reality since, unlike Ne, Se truly does register reality as it appears and the patterns it stores via Ni are trends of the environment. These types are the least socially inept. They can use their Ni/Se to understand the sense and flow of the dynamics of people (Fe). This is also what makes these types the most cunning, and in my opinion "smooth talkers". When it pertains to forms of expression, such as music, poetry, writing, these types have a dramatic expression that knows instinctively how to relay an impact. Their capacity for understanding trends and social climates also gives them the advantage of being more able to adapt and steer those trends. (i.e. Steve Jobs, Bruce Lee). This keen culture-building ability is also what has given rise to many Beta social reformers (i.e. MLK Jr) and religion starters.
Gamma / NiTe, TeNi, FiSe, SeFi
These types have the least tendency to make erroneous conclusions or suggestions - given the nature of their Ni/Se's convergent perception which fuels their Te's capacity to know the logistical and realistic direction reality flows. If there are any types that are "no bullshit" it would be these. These types lack the buoyancy of Ne, though they have excitation via Se, it is more intense and concentrated in smaller bursts. They're, however, often misunderstood as being overly "hard" and even cruel. This perception typically rises from Alphas and Betas who consider their utilitarian approach far too impersonal and rigid. Despite that appearance, they don't generally hold ill will against others, and this error comes from the fact that Ti/Fe users (Alphas/Betas) are measuring them with their Fe and they're falling short of Fe's standards for acceptable social protocol. But looking at Gammas through Fe's standards is a flawed approach. On the other hand, Deltas appreciate their decisiveness more, and are able to add a peculiar sense of humor with their Ne/Si.
Delta / NeFi, FiNe, SiTe, TeSi
Like Gammas, these types can be quite decisive and somewhat 'no bullshit' though they are more prone to it than Gammas. I've observed these types have a unique sense of humor that is a combination of Ne+Te, which no other types have. It's witty, quick, but also very out there which makes it more hilarious. Gammas' sense of humor is more deadpan. Alphas have more of a pun-based humor and are not very hard to make smile. Deltas have a peculiar capacity to take the generated ideas of Ne/Si, and implement them logistically (Te). On average, I find that Alphas do less actual implementation of their hypothesis into innovative inventions. This is also why I think we see a lot of Delta innovators like James Cameron, J.R.R. Tolkien, Einstein, Torvalds, Bill Gates, etc.
These are just Archetypal notes - not profiles of the quadras. These are just general observations from my finite experience.... sharing them here as a fellow member. ^^ What are your thoughts on the quadras? How do you see the types?
(I'm not even sure if CT should use the same names for these quadras or if that'd just cause more confusion)
I'm a Beta and I can agree with the Beta description, though I don't really think I am a "smooth talker". But I feel very split a lot of times when it comes to making an important decision. I tend to see problems the same way as Gamma types (serious perception) do, but I feel I lack the courage to make decisions the way they do (with my judicious judgement vs. their decisive judgement). It is like they make decisions with more confidence, regardless of what other's will say. I actually feel too "collective and democratic" for my own good, where I will hold back the things I say or do for fear of hurting people's feelings or going against the grain too much. I wish I didn't care what other people thought because I would feel much more free to decide based on my own values and thoughts more. This is actually an ongoing struggle of mine.
I realize now that I often consulted Alpha types when it comes to making decisions and maybe it is because of this "collective and democratic" approach that we share. There is a "softer" feeling that comes with their advice. It usually ends though with me sacrificing my own sense of how things are for a greater harmony and peace. And lately, I have come to resent this conclusion because of the toll it seems to take out of my own peace of mind.
When I talk to my dad (a Gamma?) about relationship/work issues, I do notice that I tend to agree with a lot of the things he says vs what my mom (Alpha?) says...but when it comes to what he thinks I should do or say, I automatically react with "No!...I can't say that to them!" It is too harsh. I can't even picture myself saying the things he would want me to say in order to solve a dispute or problem because I perceive it as sounding/looking rude. But I actually greatly "wish" I could say such things.
In that way, I wish I was a Gamma, so that I could have the guts to do my own thing and be able to instinctively make decisions that are objective and don't weigh so heavily on what Fe says is rude or not. I could even wish I was an Alpha because of what the author of this thread says is their inclinations to delusion. When I think of the small amount of people in my own life, who I believe are alphas, they certainly seem to be happier than I am and go with the flow much better. I feel like I can spot so much negative trends with work/society/life, but I often feel too confused about what I should do, so I consult other people to tell me what to do. And since they are usually other Fe/Ti users, I feel like it results in me going with the flow as well and taking into account all of what Fe values are...
After reading the original post, I wonder, if I should try to consult Gamma's more when it comes to big decisions that I need help with. And then when the Gamma's help me put things in logical perspective, then I can consult with Alpha's about how to soften and carry-out the Gamma's advice? I don't know many Delta's IRL, so I dunno how I would use them. haha. That sounds bad.
I also wonder if Delta's also feel a big split, like I do as a Beta, when it comes to making decisions, having a "childish" perception but a "mature judgment"? How does one reconcile this divide of having a childish function pair with a mature function pair?
Last Edit: Dec 17, 2013 19:56:31 GMT -5 by IluvHSJ
"I will never assert that an individual must be the type I think they are. I am human, I still have subjectivity. I also think it's possible that an individual can be aware if they have been mistyped. Therefore, when it comes down to it, the ultimate decision to accept/reject a typing should come from that person themself. For better or worse, it is ultimately up to them...or some kind of perfect brain scan. haha"
I've had communication issues with Gamma people too. I know one Gamma girl (with strong Te) who makes me feel agressivness flashes when I talk to her, because she sometimes sounds extremely arrogant, self-confident, overly blunt and totally deprived of consideration for people's feelings. When I'm really irritated by her speech tone, I'm very tempted to attack her personnally and hurt her feelings in reaction to her seeming lack of empathy. I'm aware that this would be a childish and stupid reaction, and I know that she is much more sensitive and considerate than she seems so I've always contained myself, but I think my immediate reaction to her attitude can be illustrative of the tensions between Betas and Gammas. And I've also experimented what IluvHSJ described with her father. My mother is an SeFi, and she has always encouraged me to be more firm and assertive with people, and to defend my interests better, especially when I was a kid. But I just couldn't, I was like "Oh my God, I cannot be that harsh, that might hurt people's feelings!". And I would keep on shuting up. But I've learnt from my mistakes, and I'm more self confident and assertive now. I don't let situations putrefy and I don't keep things to myself anymore (that's not something I'm very good at, anyway). Sadly or not, I noticed that I gain more respect from others when I'm reactive than when I'm gentle and passive...
and I keep on . And yet, retrospectively I realize that my attitude pushed me to do very stupid things