Clarifying Fi and Emotions, Refining Fi-Te Oscillation
Apr 29, 2018 3:18:23 GMT -5 by nymph
jelle and Meta like this
Post by nymph on Apr 29, 2018 3:18:23 GMT -5
12:45 PM] Phibious: every function aims at "correctness" for wildly varying definitions of "correctness"
[12:46 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): yeah i think understanding could be a subset of correctness
[12:51 PM] f a e: So Ji is our faculty for finding fundamental principles and Je for applying ready principles onto the world. How does Fi differ from Ti?
[12:52 PM] f a e: Gosh this makes so much sense!!!(edited)
[12:52 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): that's what it usually does for me. it just helps to see how concepts connect and progress. or sometimes to compare magnitudes of certain claims. things like that. but the best structures, as you said, seem to the be the pretty ones, while the lopsided and haphazard ones generally alert me that something might be amiss. Or that it's just some messy context-bound stuff where the person got overzealous with examples or something. Sort of separating wheat from chaff...
^^Those examples of what's wrong are the first thing that came into my mind, there might be more to that...
[12:53 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): I also use it compare and contrast to other stuffs, that's big for me. I'm a sucker for reconciling seemingly opposed ideas
[12:54 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): I don't have the "this or that" of Fi
[12:54 PM] f a e: I really think I do this too, but its more a feeling of non-alignment, knottiness, messy jumbled feeling that tells me my thinking is off
[12:54 PM] Phibious: Personally, I'm leaning towards
Fi chooses specific, meaningful propositions as fundamental principles
Ti chooses coherent systems to work within as fundamental principles
[12:54 PM] f a e: A real feeling right in my chest
[12:55 PM] Phibious: Then from that:
Te can run very logical deductive/analytic reasoning based on Fi propositions
Fe can handle contextual, frame-dependent reasoning within a given system
[12:56 PM] f a e: When everything is right its like theres a clear unobstructed pathway from my chest. Everything is light and clean
[12:56 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Wow your experiences are super somatic Fae
[12:56 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): mine are far more visual for sure
[12:57 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): there are some feelings mixed in there when i like stuff but i'm not sure it's quite the same as yours
[12:58 PM] f a e: Maybe Fi/Ti differ also in the manner they sense these Ji castles/structures
[12:58 PM] f a e: Fi being more somatic as you say
[12:58 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): you seem to have a visual element too
[12:59 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): but your relationship to it seems more bodily
[1:00 PM] f a e: True
[1:00 PM] Phibious: In particular I really like "Fi chooses specific, meaningful propositions as fundamental principles".
It accounts for Fi-heavy STEM geniuses without ad-hoc reasoning or flailing rationalization.
It accounts for the personal emotional attachments of Fi in a way that makes sense.
Our main other explanation has basically been a very respectful rephrasing of "lol well I guess those Fi's are all emotional and inject that into their reasoning".
[1:03 PM] UmbilicalSphere: are you disconnecting emotions from any connection to Fi with that definition?
[1:03 PM] Phibious: Emotions are not Fi like memory is not Si and vision in not Se.
[1:03 PM] UmbilicalSphere: ive consistently observed Fi heavy people with stronger and more consistent connections to their emotional experience compared to Ti heavy people
[1:03 PM] UmbilicalSphere: nope
[1:03 PM] Phibious: I just accounted for that.
[1:03 PM] Phibious: Reading comprehension.
[1:04 PM] Phibious: We actually have a big problem with how we outline Fi and Te in that we give them really condescending descriptions phrased in extremely respectful ways.
[1:04 PM] UmbilicalSphere: havent read that part yet
[1:04 PM] Phibious: ^^Oops, okay sorry.
We wonder why so many Te/Fi's have trouble with descriptions or parts of the system.
It's not because we didn't say it nicely enough for their sensitive feelings.
It's because we're legitimately describing them as idiots half the time.
/////////////////////
[12:46 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): yeah i think understanding could be a subset of correctness
[12:51 PM] f a e: So Ji is our faculty for finding fundamental principles and Je for applying ready principles onto the world. How does Fi differ from Ti?
[12:52 PM] f a e: Gosh this makes so much sense!!!(edited)
[12:52 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): that's what it usually does for me. it just helps to see how concepts connect and progress. or sometimes to compare magnitudes of certain claims. things like that. but the best structures, as you said, seem to the be the pretty ones, while the lopsided and haphazard ones generally alert me that something might be amiss. Or that it's just some messy context-bound stuff where the person got overzealous with examples or something. Sort of separating wheat from chaff...
^^Those examples of what's wrong are the first thing that came into my mind, there might be more to that...
[12:53 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): I also use it compare and contrast to other stuffs, that's big for me. I'm a sucker for reconciling seemingly opposed ideas
[12:54 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): I don't have the "this or that" of Fi
[12:54 PM] f a e: I really think I do this too, but its more a feeling of non-alignment, knottiness, messy jumbled feeling that tells me my thinking is off
[12:54 PM] Phibious: Personally, I'm leaning towards
Fi chooses specific, meaningful propositions as fundamental principles
Ti chooses coherent systems to work within as fundamental principles
[12:54 PM] f a e: A real feeling right in my chest
[12:55 PM] Phibious: Then from that:
Te can run very logical deductive/analytic reasoning based on Fi propositions
Fe can handle contextual, frame-dependent reasoning within a given system
[12:56 PM] f a e: When everything is right its like theres a clear unobstructed pathway from my chest. Everything is light and clean
[12:56 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Wow your experiences are super somatic Fae
[12:56 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): mine are far more visual for sure
[12:57 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): there are some feelings mixed in there when i like stuff but i'm not sure it's quite the same as yours
[12:58 PM] f a e: Maybe Fi/Ti differ also in the manner they sense these Ji castles/structures
[12:58 PM] f a e: Fi being more somatic as you say
[12:58 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): you seem to have a visual element too
[12:59 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): but your relationship to it seems more bodily
[1:00 PM] f a e: True
[1:00 PM] Phibious: In particular I really like "Fi chooses specific, meaningful propositions as fundamental principles".
It accounts for Fi-heavy STEM geniuses without ad-hoc reasoning or flailing rationalization.
It accounts for the personal emotional attachments of Fi in a way that makes sense.
Our main other explanation has basically been a very respectful rephrasing of "lol well I guess those Fi's are all emotional and inject that into their reasoning".
[1:03 PM] UmbilicalSphere: are you disconnecting emotions from any connection to Fi with that definition?
[1:03 PM] Phibious: Emotions are not Fi like memory is not Si and vision in not Se.
[1:03 PM] UmbilicalSphere: ive consistently observed Fi heavy people with stronger and more consistent connections to their emotional experience compared to Ti heavy people
[1:03 PM] UmbilicalSphere: nope
[1:03 PM] Phibious: I just accounted for that.
[1:03 PM] Phibious: Reading comprehension.
[1:04 PM] Phibious: We actually have a big problem with how we outline Fi and Te in that we give them really condescending descriptions phrased in extremely respectful ways.
[1:04 PM] UmbilicalSphere: havent read that part yet
[1:04 PM] Phibious: ^^Oops, okay sorry.
We wonder why so many Te/Fi's have trouble with descriptions or parts of the system.
It's not because we didn't say it nicely enough for their sensitive feelings.
It's because we're legitimately describing them as idiots half the time.
/////////////////////