Post by nymph on Apr 29, 2018 3:53:17 GMT -5
[5:17 PM] Phibious: @nikki | FiNe
[5:17 PM] Phibious: Eight-function models tend to ascribe things that anyone can do to specific functions.
For example, looking at things might be Se. Since Ne types can also look at things, they must be doing it with their shadow function Se. They're less aware of it and don't focus on it as much, but it's Se. LIkewise for Si remembering things, or for Fe guessing whether Brenda is going to break up with Jacob.
This is not at all how CT works. In general, if everyone can do it, it's not a function under CT.
The senses are pre-function.
Memory is pre-function.
Emotions are pre-function.
The ability to have ideas is pre-function.
The ability to follow simple reasoning is pre-function.
Functions are laid on top of your basic faculties, and are more about how you mentally organize their results and which parts you prioritize.
So, if you use Se/Ni, your perceptions are organized along a certain sort of deep structure, you can't then use Si/Ne because that would mean organizing those same perceptions along an incompatible kind of deep structure. But, the raw data coming into your eyeballs and the basic fact that you can remember things is the same either way.
[5:17 PM] Phibious: Pe, Pi, Je, Ji are four core areas of mental organization that each have one of two different fundamental organizing structures in each individual.
Pe organizes your perceptions into coherent experience instead of a random flood of raw sensory impressions.
Se represents things as a continuous whole, while Ne represents things as an independent series of separate chunks.
Pi organizes your knowledge into a coherent worldview instead of a random pile of meaningless data points.
Si like Ne, builds a worldview out of independently meaningful modular pieces, while Ni, like Se, builds a worldview as a single holistic gestalt.
Je organizes reasoning according to local, directly relevant meaning. This happens to be the most relevant kind of meaning for most action and articulation, which are therefore associated with Je.
Fe brings individual will to the Je reasoning process while Te stays partially removed, viewing the same material in impersonal terms.
Ji organizes reasoning according to abstract universal meaning.
Fi, like Fe, brings individual will to the abstract Ji reasoning process, whereas Ti does not, viewing abstract reasoning in an impersonal and detached way.
[5:21 PM] nikki | FiNe: @phibious thank you very much! I’m gonna digest all this info a bit as it is quite different, especially, from socionics (a system that I used to like a lot)
[5:38 PM] gangster cartier: this is the most solid argument against the 8 function model ive ever seen
[5:39 PM] gangster cartier: i commend u phibs
[8:46 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): I just try to drop suggestions here and there because I want CT to be the best
[8:46 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): I've seen way too many personality type gurus in oerson because they're always hired for seminars. They're exciting but never helpful. And then the excitement wears off because you realize they didn't go deep enough.
[8:46 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Hehe yeah
[8:47 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Well it is the best :muscle:
[8:48 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): The only way I can know the essence of something in a more tanglinle or less abstract way is to just keep poking it.
[8:48 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): CT still has some elements that go against its foundation of mutual exclusivity
[8:48 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): But I see those slowly getting weeded out
[8:48 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): You mean when you see what a signal isn't?
[8:48 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Those are just function definitions
[8:49 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): This is def the cleanest way to get to the heart of the functions
8:49 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): The Si is memory
Se is five senses
N equals concepts
[8:49 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Those sorts of things need to be taken out of CT
[8:49 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Everything else just frustrates me. Just riddled with weeds and I couldn't sort oeoooe properly to go ground up myself. And well, neither could most people
[8:50 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Oh I see
[8:50 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Yes definitely
[8:50 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): They’re incoherent with the premise of mutual exclusivity
[8:50 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Si and Ni reference a specific type of memory
[8:50 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): No
[8:51 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Well I don’t know
[8:51 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Eh wtv
[8:51 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): I would think "map" is a type of schema
[8:51 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): That's why it governs Je so well
[8:52 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): But I could be imputing characteristics from into the other
[8:52 PM] Phibious: My current sense is that Si and Ni compile knowledge into coherent worldviews in two different ways.
They end up drawing from memory to do this, but memory itself is pre-function.
[12:02 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): right. i think that Pi is officially defined as you suggested Phibs; ...i think i remember using the metaphor that Pi is the "librarian" rather than the library. and so Pi is a modality of organizing information. these two librarians (Si/Ni) like to make different libraries.
[12:03 AM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Se/Ni is more like this from what I can tell. Frozen ensemble of events in time (on any level) that’s how you get “predictions” in some set of frozen ensembles there is a common factor or pattern
[12:03 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): So it's tricky because i feel that my whole memory structure is 'encoded' in the Si manner. my memories are bite-sized bits, sorta disjointed from one another with little continuity.
[12:03 AM] Phibious: oh right yes! I remember the librarian comparison from somewhere on the forum now.
[3:45 AM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): To me, the difficulty with the librarian analogy is that it suggests a local entity, an individual, which is difficult to separate from Ji.
I agree that one should not confuse Pi with memory, but I would still describe Pi as an overarching phenomenon, hence its manifestation in myth as a cosmic principle.
It does not lend itself well to anthropomorphism, but if memory is a library, then Pi is like a living or a self-ordering library.
[4:01 AM] Zweilous | TiNe (lll-): My analogy was that the librarian is a manifestation of the magic sentient library. Its avatar.
🤔1
👌2
[4:05 AM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Autopoetic Library
[4:05 AM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): :smiley:
[4:06 AM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Would be sentient and self-ordering
[4:08 AM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): And would include the complete works of Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela ?
[5:17 PM] Phibious: Eight-function models tend to ascribe things that anyone can do to specific functions.
For example, looking at things might be Se. Since Ne types can also look at things, they must be doing it with their shadow function Se. They're less aware of it and don't focus on it as much, but it's Se. LIkewise for Si remembering things, or for Fe guessing whether Brenda is going to break up with Jacob.
This is not at all how CT works. In general, if everyone can do it, it's not a function under CT.
The senses are pre-function.
Memory is pre-function.
Emotions are pre-function.
The ability to have ideas is pre-function.
The ability to follow simple reasoning is pre-function.
Functions are laid on top of your basic faculties, and are more about how you mentally organize their results and which parts you prioritize.
So, if you use Se/Ni, your perceptions are organized along a certain sort of deep structure, you can't then use Si/Ne because that would mean organizing those same perceptions along an incompatible kind of deep structure. But, the raw data coming into your eyeballs and the basic fact that you can remember things is the same either way.
[5:17 PM] Phibious: Pe, Pi, Je, Ji are four core areas of mental organization that each have one of two different fundamental organizing structures in each individual.
Pe organizes your perceptions into coherent experience instead of a random flood of raw sensory impressions.
Se represents things as a continuous whole, while Ne represents things as an independent series of separate chunks.
Pi organizes your knowledge into a coherent worldview instead of a random pile of meaningless data points.
Si like Ne, builds a worldview out of independently meaningful modular pieces, while Ni, like Se, builds a worldview as a single holistic gestalt.
Je organizes reasoning according to local, directly relevant meaning. This happens to be the most relevant kind of meaning for most action and articulation, which are therefore associated with Je.
Fe brings individual will to the Je reasoning process while Te stays partially removed, viewing the same material in impersonal terms.
Ji organizes reasoning according to abstract universal meaning.
Fi, like Fe, brings individual will to the abstract Ji reasoning process, whereas Ti does not, viewing abstract reasoning in an impersonal and detached way.
[5:21 PM] nikki | FiNe: @phibious thank you very much! I’m gonna digest all this info a bit as it is quite different, especially, from socionics (a system that I used to like a lot)
[5:38 PM] gangster cartier: this is the most solid argument against the 8 function model ive ever seen
[5:39 PM] gangster cartier: i commend u phibs
[8:46 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): I just try to drop suggestions here and there because I want CT to be the best
[8:46 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): I've seen way too many personality type gurus in oerson because they're always hired for seminars. They're exciting but never helpful. And then the excitement wears off because you realize they didn't go deep enough.
[8:46 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Hehe yeah
[8:47 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Well it is the best :muscle:
[8:48 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): The only way I can know the essence of something in a more tanglinle or less abstract way is to just keep poking it.
[8:48 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): CT still has some elements that go against its foundation of mutual exclusivity
[8:48 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): But I see those slowly getting weeded out
[8:48 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): You mean when you see what a signal isn't?
[8:48 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Those are just function definitions
[8:49 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): This is def the cleanest way to get to the heart of the functions
8:49 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): The Si is memory
Se is five senses
N equals concepts
[8:49 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Those sorts of things need to be taken out of CT
[8:49 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Everything else just frustrates me. Just riddled with weeds and I couldn't sort oeoooe properly to go ground up myself. And well, neither could most people
[8:50 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Oh I see
[8:50 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Yes definitely
[8:50 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): They’re incoherent with the premise of mutual exclusivity
[8:50 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): Si and Ni reference a specific type of memory
[8:50 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): No
[8:51 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Well I don’t know
[8:51 PM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Eh wtv
[8:51 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): I would think "map" is a type of schema
[8:51 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): That's why it governs Je so well
[8:52 PM] HangryBish (Ne Δ): But I could be imputing characteristics from into the other
[8:52 PM] Phibious: My current sense is that Si and Ni compile knowledge into coherent worldviews in two different ways.
They end up drawing from memory to do this, but memory itself is pre-function.
[12:02 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): right. i think that Pi is officially defined as you suggested Phibs; ...i think i remember using the metaphor that Pi is the "librarian" rather than the library. and so Pi is a modality of organizing information. these two librarians (Si/Ni) like to make different libraries.
[12:03 AM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Se/Ni is more like this from what I can tell. Frozen ensemble of events in time (on any level) that’s how you get “predictions” in some set of frozen ensembles there is a common factor or pattern
[12:03 AM] Auburn | TiNe (ll-l): So it's tricky because i feel that my whole memory structure is 'encoded' in the Si manner. my memories are bite-sized bits, sorta disjointed from one another with little continuity.
[12:03 AM] Phibious: oh right yes! I remember the librarian comparison from somewhere on the forum now.
[3:45 AM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): To me, the difficulty with the librarian analogy is that it suggests a local entity, an individual, which is difficult to separate from Ji.
I agree that one should not confuse Pi with memory, but I would still describe Pi as an overarching phenomenon, hence its manifestation in myth as a cosmic principle.
It does not lend itself well to anthropomorphism, but if memory is a library, then Pi is like a living or a self-ordering library.
[4:01 AM] Zweilous | TiNe (lll-): My analogy was that the librarian is a manifestation of the magic sentient library. Its avatar.
🤔1
👌2
[4:05 AM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Autopoetic Library
[4:05 AM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): :smiley:
[4:06 AM] iso-jellyskelly | TiSe (II-I): Would be sentient and self-ordering
[4:08 AM] ayoungspirit | NiFe-Ti (I-I-): And would include the complete works of Humberto Maturana and Francisco Varela ?