The conjunction between aspiness and Ne+Fi has shown itself to be a pervasive pattern which I feel deserves some additional attention.
A passive mention was made in the book to the effect of:
These symptoms [DSM-5 on autism spectrum] overlap heavily with Fi, as Fi has no built in structure for understanding social dynamics. Without a proper harmonization with Te – its method of understanding the dynamics of “the world” (and by extension people) – Fi is left unaware of how to interface with the social landscape. Add to that Fi’s innately off-beat disposition – as expressed through the above signals of asynchronous mouth movements, unmatching relation between inner feeling and outward expression, and unordinary giggling – and what results is an individual who is quite socially peculiar. - Cognitive Type, Ch 5
But I think there's much more to uncover. I find it counter-intuitive how high-Fi's often report being highly sensitive to emotional pain, affected by the emotional energies of others... and yet not in tune with them, nor able to respond to them in a socially appropriate manner? There is a seeming paradox here that I am trying to tease out better. So I'm hoping to ask a few questions?
o) What are some of your specific 'aspie' traits?
o) Do you consider yourself aware of your emotional state? What about that of others?
o) How do your aspie traits... interact with your Fi affect/sensitivity/permeability?
o) Do you feel more like a "T" type or "F" type in terms of temperament? And why?
o) What's an ideal social interaction like for you?
There are many paradoxes, yes. I've observed them over the years since I was a kid (one of the biggest themes I'd see in aspie types was regarding noise: they'd dish it, but they can't take it. No awarenesss of vocal volume from the self, but high levels of sensitivity when hearing noise from the environment and others. My brother and I are both like this.). It's very much like you said, being aware of people from the inside out. So from that perspective I was aware of the paradoxes about myself, but not from an outside Fe angle, taking into account any meaningfulness about social dynamics. In fact, I was quite actively resistant to the idea that that those dynamics are necessary, in a bit of an anti-social way.
I've historically struggled to have successful social interactions with others, and eventually even kind of gave up on talking to people for a while due to feeling too separated from others and feeling awful/awkward when attempting to interact with them. People frequently seem to think I'm feeling something that I'm not (maybe my face that I'm unaware of?) i.e. they will poke fun at me/playful banter and be like "woah dude don't take it so seriously" when I'm hardly even listening to them and couldn't care less. I didn't understand a lot of unspoken/unwritten social rules, and even if I did understand them, I disregarded them on principle if I thought they were pointless or stupid. I always had a really flat affect as well, rather expressionless.
Also, like teatime said, I had some of the classic sensory overload issues: didn't like loud noises or bright lights (I remember the school cafeteria, with harsh fluorescent lights overhead, the roar of chattering students, and the choking stench of disinfectant that I could even taste when I tried to eat my lunch), didn't like the feeling of certain clothing against my skin (didnt wear jeans for a long time because of that).
Many of these traits seem to have lessened or vanished over time.
o) Do you consider yourself aware of your emotional state? What about that of others?
I'm unaware of my emotional state when I'm severely depressed/dissociated which seems to come in cycles. Other times I may be aware of what I'm feeling but not know why. Rarely am I aware of both my feelings and the triggers behind them. I am usually much more aware of what other people are feeling and their reasons/motivations behind it. Sometimes, even more aware than they are themselves (or so I suspect)
o) How do your aspie traits... interact with your Fi affect/sensitivity/permeability?
I think I can often attribute other peoples emotions to myself, being consciously unaware of that "permeability" going on. Also I sometimes don't identify with what I'm feeling. For example, a psychiatrist once told me I seemed really "aspie" because I was obviously SEVERELY depressed but not identifying with feelings of sadness. Or, I can recognize that I have a deep well of anger inside of me, but not REALLY feel angry at the moment. Other times, I seem to have my Fi totally "shut off" (defense mechanism?) and feel totally cut off from myself and others, in a fog.
o) Do you feel more like a "T" type or "F" type in terms of temperament? And why?
I don't really like this question. Obviously I feel more like a "T" type because I always identified as INTP/LII before finding this community. I always identified with descriptions of Ti and Ne more than other cognitive functions. I still often find it difficult to identify with Te or Fi. In CT theory, I really only identify with Ne as an individual function, and even then only some parts of it. However, I've often thought that Fi has been poorly defined and understood, although I think you have done an excellent job of attempting to flesh out the nature of Fi and explain how it can be superficially similar to Ti, in comparison to other people/systems. If I indeed use Fi and Te, then I am totally disconnected from their contribution to my psychology and behavior.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I spent a LOT of time playing video games with nerdy NT types growing up (particularly my step-brother, who is more likely to be a true TiNe) who sort of conditioned me to use my thinking functions more in conversation, basically called me an idiot when I failed to employ good Ti, etc, so I think that had a pretty large impact. I also had a problem with authority figures who tried to enforce rules on me without explaining why I should have to follow them, and a mother (FiSe/SeFi) and sister (definitely SeFi) who displayed some really awful/immature Fi and emotional outbursts that made me not want to be the same way.
o) What's an ideal social interaction like for you?
I've had a lot of fun at music festivals, using drugs and dancing around (I suck at dancing but whatever) and hanging out with hippy/druggie people who just want to relax and have fun, and don't judge anyone because everyone is "weird." Admittedly those environments are probably LOADED with NeFi people in comparison to other places. Although after a while that can get exhausting, body and mind become overloaded, and I'm really not about that life anymore.
I generally just like to hang out in online chatrooms or discord, etc having intellectual discussions with people, often about philosophy/geopolitics/technology/whatever comes up, or just joking around and having fun, while I listen to music or play video games in the background.
I used to hang out with a small group of friends and smoke weed and play tabletop RPG games, play music, and order food. That was a lot of fun but I don't have anyone to do that with anymore.
o) What are some of your specific 'aspie' traits? im a millennial white person with a french-fry on my shoulder
o) Do you consider yourself aware of your emotional state? What about that of others? no, only in retrospect. but extremely sensitive to others. and i dont mind that, it's useful, it's never been negative/overwhelming or anything. im basically watching their cells move. so from a third person perspective i could probably do that to myself. like in a video. but as i can't look at myself in the moment, i dont know. [more below in next section] i dont pay attention to that [me] because it's not a priority for me, i know im not good at it too. "how are you feeling"...well, christ, what is everyone else feeling? what is the state of affairs? are things on fire? very outward. inward isnt important unless ineffective with what busy doing/has to be done, then examine. which usually just means reconsidering viewpoints/perspective, pulling-up bootstraps and getting on with it
o) How do your aspie traits... interact with your Fi affect/sensitivity/permeability? (maybe just answered that, that there doesnt seem to be connection between [my] Fi face signals and anything going on internally that i am able to detect,anything is rare anyways), as for Fi lack of face-control (lol) ,im aware of that, i just use it to advantage where-ever possible - may as well own it, right? - and slam my head in the nearest car-door when i cant.
o) Do you feel more like a "T" type or "F" type in temperament?
i think pretty balanced, but i just cant compromise T, if i have reasons, or other reasons make more sense to me, i gotta do it the right/safest way, although willing to explain and, obviously sometimes it's better to compromise WITH someone to not make more setbacks or further problems....and always on the lookout for that [danger and ppl walking into it for lame or lack-of good reasons, fuckin up the syst3m], so...its worrying to imagine doing otherwise - it just seems that people lack common sense [around me atm]
"In terms of behavioral styles, the man who gives himself to feeling is prone to the highest compassion, tenderness and care" hammer-shaped care
o) What's an ideal social interaction like for you?
heheh..."everyone livin' it up/large and succeeding perfectly-well because they were in an organized effort toward greater-goals and listened to Elsie *COUGH*". but i guess that's after the interaction.. but yeah. other than fighting through stuff... like listening, talking, explaining things. working together. lightening-up the mood. helping others sort out where/what they need to be in life, whats-what, got-what, and how-what. but usually im just observing and being exposed to whatever inputs i think i may learn/new from. that is down-time.
EDIT: teaching ppl. how did i forget that? especially teaching kids.
no whining. no inaccuracy. no BS. only forwards/fixing. milling-about kills me. planning/deciding/doing is my favourite thing InLifeEver. especially if it involves others. but that doesnt mean no fun allowed. just as long as isnt at expense. theres gotta be balance. then netflix-youtube on repeat until die, but i pause the movie every 2 minutes to pretend-be-shocked/amazed (DID YOU SEE THAT?) and make a huge scene out of everything, because
i can now place obligatory theme-video for this post
Last Edit: Nov 18, 2018 14:58:42 GMT -5 by Deleted
spacey - right! you too, Interesting. A followup question for you guys on alexithymia:
"Alexithymia is a personality characteristic in which the individual is unable to identify and describe their emotions. The main feature of Alexithymia is an emotional unawareness, lack of social attachment, and poor interpersonal relating. Furthermore, those suffering from Alexithymia have difficulty recognizing and understanding the emotions of others.
Alexithymia means there is:
1.Difficulty identifying feelings and distinguishing between feelings and the bodily sensations.
2.Difficulty describing feelings to other people.
3.Limited imagination and, therefore, little or no fantasies and limited dreams.
4.An unawareness of what is happening in their own mind and a very concrete way of thinking."
o) What are some of your specific 'aspie' traits? During middle school i was once asked by someone what it's like to be autistic, and i retorted with "what is it like to be normal?" This could be seen as snarky, but it legitimately brings up the supposed hindrance of autism --- lacking a connection. How am i supposed to compare and define when i'm unable to really connect with the other person to begin with? So my lack of self awareness aside, i guess i can say what others have reported about me. A lot have said i do seem eccentric. And it's not necessarily always in a histrionic way, but perhaps more so in these somewhat off-kilter responses and behaviors. When i do watch videos of myself, i do notice that there's this jagged childlike persona. I don't seem that abnormal, i can pass for a normie in certain circumstances. But the more one would talk to me, the more one would probably find something off.
o) Do you consider yourself aware of your emotional state? What about that of others? My own emotional states vary. Sometimes i know when i'm sad, angry, or happy. But i'm sometimes uncertain why and sometimes i'll even make these bonkers theories on certain emotions (this is also partly due to having being obsessed with the DSM at one point). I have various shades of emotions, i guess. And i sometimes don't know about others. As for others emotions. I sometimes can't tell. Sometimes i feel there's this huge disconnect with other people. I need some kinda "reference point" to empathize. But like reading people's faces, a lotta times feel nothing. And the time i do feel something i notice it's because it's a projected idea. And this is evident in when i find out the person is actually fine, my supposed reciprocation depletes. Often do i berate myself for lacking empathy. If there's anything "normal" i want to become, it's having solid empathy. However, my years of bullying and whatnot informed me that normal people are corrupt. However, i notice i'll kinda automatically laugh when others are laughing. Is that empathy? I don't think so. I just don't know these things too well.
o) How do your aspie traits... interact with your Fi affect/sensitivity/permeability? Well, the emotional shades that are hard to identify is one of aspects of my "defective" Fi, perhaps. But mentally, i'd say i have my own inner world of values and whatnot. although i believe i've been more increasingly outta touch with it this past year, i believe that on some level, i'm very emotionally intelligent (waiting to find out i'm Dunning-Kruegering mysefl). And this part is evident in how i'm able to detect some of these human "depths" and be able to look elsewhere and logically correct them. Example, i've had years of insecurity of the gender role i'm meant to fill. Now, i find that a lotta people who have this issue basically, for the lack of a better word, totally cuck themselves into doing all this multi gendered stuff. I mean, i definitely entertained those ideas, but i was intelligent enough to know that is not the way, and my inquisitiveness served me exploration of the truth, weather via introspection, interacting with friends, or research. Just regarding this idea of gender, i'm able to both empathize with many different movements sharing their ideas on the matter. Red pill, SJWs. i've found that they are one in the same, and i can empathize with both, yet also see their faults. So i guess if i do have a strong suit, it's really taking an internal "topic" and examining over a period of time and "systemizing" it. Maybe i'm being gratuitous with the word "systemizing", perhaps it's contingent on my inability to detect some emotions and sometimes fail to realize some very basic human matters... which then, again, yikes, Dunning-Krueger. If this says anything, it shows i'm a very self-doubting yet hubristic individual.
o) Do you feel more like a "T" type or "F" type in terms of temperament? And why? One could say i'm more cold than what is expected of a Feeler, not always compassionate or diplomatic. However, i'm certainly sensitive, both in a vulnerable and egotistical way. However, i find temperament somewhat irrelevant as it may not always represent the mental faculties. As much as an Alpha NT i may seem to others, i certainly do not possess the logical finesse that they are often endowed with. Plus, i believe there's an important distinction to make here, offline vs online. Offline, i definitely come across as Alpha NT. IRL, perhaps Delta NF or SEI / ISFp.
o) What's an ideal social interaction like for you? Well as self-absorbed this sounds, mostly any instance where i can dominate the conversation and just pour my thoughts out ad nauseum (some of them not really thought out before) But umm, i guess what would be ideal is an interaction that isn't demanding. I really hate it when it i'm expected to give certain info when i simply just can't... articulate it. I'm infinitely better at articulating online than in person. All what you read here couldn't have been spoken with same degree of the eloquence if we were in person. It just couldn't.
Points: 108 Medium Alexithymia Traits: You show some alexithymic traits. If you are interested in Alexithymia we would be happy to have you as a regular visitor on our pages.
Category: Difficulty Identifying Feelings: 26 (6 - 30) In this category you show high alexithymic traits.
Category: Difficulty Describing Feelings: 16 (4 - 20) In this category you show high alexithymic traits.
Category: Externally-Oriented Thinking: 19 (7 - 35) In this category you show some alexithymic traits.
Category: Restricted Imaginative Processes: 11 (7 - 35) In this category you show no alexithymic traits.
Category: Problematic Interpersonal Relationships: 22 (6 - 30) In this category you show high alexithymic traits.
Category: Sexual Difficulties and Disinterest: 9 (4 - 20) In this category you show no alexithymic traits.
Category: Vicarious Interpretation of Feelings: 5 (3 - 15) In this category you show no alexithymic traits.
o) What are some of your specific 'aspie' traits? -Sensory processing disorder -Stimming -Delayed social development -phases of intense hyper focus on one subject - wanting to think, do and speak about nothing else for months.
o) Do you consider yourself aware of your emotional state? What about that of others?
Very aware of both now, but self-awareness came first. I cannot pinpoint exactly when I became aware of either. It was an organic process. As it is now, I am strongly affected by the emotional atmosphere. I will get surges of adrenaline and other unpleasant physical responses when in a negative emotional atmosphere. It’s nearly impossible to remember what it was like before I had this awareness. Some situations I look back and feel immensely pained remembering and I can’t imagine why I didn’t feel that way before.
For example, one of my friends came to my house at Christmas when we were about 8 and she started tearing up because she saw how much more my siblings and I had received than she had. I don’t even remember noticing that she was sad and only know now because my mother has related the situation to me. Now I think back on it and it makes me heartbroken. I wish I could go back and change the situation - go to her house instead or clean up before she came over or something. Sometimes I was the direct source of the pain, saying things without discretion and not noticing how they were taken. I cringe at some of the awful things I’ve said to people.
o) How do your aspie traits... interact with your Fi affect/sensitivity/permeability?
Exactly as described in the OP: highly affected but unable to respond. I cannot act in real time in response to emotional situations. There is always a lag in processing. I can be aware, and feel empathy, but responding to it takes some mental gymnastics as I sort out all I’ve learned about social protocol. When I finally do respond, it feels awkward because it is out of sync with the actual situation.
For an Aspie, social behaviors are learned and modeled rather than natural organic processes. Even when I figure out what I should do or say, there’s always a nagging feeling of inauthenticity. My feelings and motives are always in the right place, but the behaviors never quite match up. Sometimes, because I can’t always match up my behaviors authentically to my emotions, I may not decide not to act at all.
I even struggle in basic situations like saying hi in response to a greeting. I can walk past someone who greets me and not process that I need to reply until way past the window of appropriate opportunity. This doesn't happen often. I've got most learned behaviors on autopilot, but sometimes I still get tripped up.
o) Do you feel more like a "T" type or "F" type in terms of temperament? And why?
I used to feel more like a T type, hence why I typed as INTJ as a teenager. But I have become more in-tune with the F temperament since then. I attribute this mostly to the delayed social development as described above. I also struggled with sarcastic and metaphorical speech early on, which probably played a role.
o) What's an ideal social interaction like for you? Interacting with niche groups and fandoms rather than generic mingling at a party. I don’t care how small or large the crowd is, only that we are all there for a common purpose. The common purpose helps me to form a framework for social interaction and eases the stress of formulating spontaneous social responses.
Last Edit: Nov 22, 2018 9:02:53 GMT -5 by Lorraine