I've seen many mentions of there being tension in the mouth area for Fi, but none for Fe. I have a hard time perceiving this tension in the pictures and videos I've seen. What is this all about?
"we're fumbling fools ignorant of ourselves" - Auburn "the depths of dark Fe can go beyond our deepest fears" - Commakaze
If I'm not mistaken, I suspect it is the depressor/levator anguli oris mucles that are contiually semi-contracted in the Fi users, and contracted further the higher Fi is in their hierarchy. It is a way the psyche automatically/unintentionally responds to having inner ethical discernment. The tension is due to the active judgment.
Diagram:
It's interesting too, how as children we're not born known facial expressions have meaning. We learn the meaning as we grow. Like when someone (i.e. your parents) gives you a scowl that communicates you did something wrong or shameful. The scowl is a sort of judgment and we learn this as children out of association. When mom scowls that way, what typically follows is retribution -> therefore that scowl = anger. There is truth in that, but that same awareness can become more keen if developed. As Paul Eckmen's work sought to do, and which CT is also doing.
For Fi users, there's constant tension in those specific muscles because their judgment function is an ethical one that is always "on". The muscles often contract at the same time, one contracting up while the other contracts down, causing a 'stretch' effect on the face going vertically from the corners of the lips to the sides of the nose. I don't know exactly why these are the muscles that are used for Fi - perhaps they just happen to be those - but it is a question on my list.
For Fe users, their tension is not always on, because their ethical judgment goes "on" in situations involving others. But for high-Fe users, the tension is in the zygomaticus major muscles. I've noticed that Fe-leads often have these muscles very "toned" due to a lot of use, but I've also seen some NeTi with it toned, which isn't impossible if they use it a lot. For Fe users the levator anguli oris is not in constant tension so the area right above the lips going up toward the eyes will be generally flat, while the area diagonally spanning from the lips to the ears will have some "meat" in it, per se.
Examples of all these are seen in this document toward the end of the document.
Fe users also use the depressor/levator angili oris muscles, but when they're about to cry. Hence why to Fe/Ti users, many Fi-leads may seem like they're continually on the verge of tears. But it's really just that they're feeling things personally on a deep level continually and ...perhaps those are the muscles used by all humans for deep feelings.
And reversely, high-Te users having that tension below deadpan cheeks, will seem to Fe/Ti users as though they're "pissed" all the time because they'll have a bit of 'smirking' tension which -- if an Fe users was doing it, would symbolize scoffing in superiority. As I've learned from hearing them describe themselves more, this isn't at all the case. It's flawed for Fe users to read the expressions of Te/Fi users through the standard of Fe user expressions.
Understood. I've read the articles, but I have a hard time seeing the Fi tension when the face is neutral in anybody other than Michael Jackson. Perhaps it's just a matter of practice.
"we're fumbling fools ignorant of ourselves" - Auburn "the depths of dark Fe can go beyond our deepest fears" - Commakaze
Post by chaoticbrain on Jun 30, 2013 22:58:10 GMT -5
I wonder if using those muscles could be due to them trying to suppress their smile, like they are always smiling but trying hard to conceal it so it comes out like a snarl. It would make sense if Fe users do that when they cry because people often try to hide the fact that their crying.
Post by ayoungspirit on Jul 1, 2013 8:05:48 GMT -5
chaoticbrain : I agree, some people who are often concealing, resisting, their smiles, or playing annoyed or cold, can be quite difficult to type between Fe/Fi (for me at least). If the reaction is not correlated, it could maybe produce a very similar effect in the contraction of the muscles !
Post by chaoticbrain on Jul 1, 2013 13:50:43 GMT -5
Alright, I just noticed this in myself, I'm not sure if this is an Fi smile or not. But it definitely goes up and kind of looks like I'm trying not to smile.
Post by ayoungspirit on Jul 18, 2013 20:31:32 GMT -5
I have noticed something funny. If you look closely to some (high) Fi users when they talk, you can clearly see two sets of folds, one on the sides of the mouth going as the mouth open and close, and one on the sides of the nose pulsating. In this case, the conjonction between them is cut and there is clearly two separate sets. Very particular and very clear signal in my opinion. An exemple.
I have noticed something funny, if you look closely to some (high ?) Fi users when they talk, you can clearly see too folds, one of the side of the mouth going as the mouth open and close, and one on the side to the nose pulsating. The line between them is cut and there is clearly to lines. Very particular and very clear signal in my opinion : An exemple
My video is not very clear but I have seen it in real life
Interesting. My father (who I believe is SiTe) has these two lines also, but not only when he speaks. I suppose that with age movements leave their imprints on the skin.
"we're fumbling fools ignorant of ourselves" - Auburn "the depths of dark Fe can go beyond our deepest fears" - Commakaze
Post by ayoungspirit on Apr 30, 2014 8:50:35 GMT -5
Coming again to the experiment from another angle, I am puzzled by some details, notably the idea that emotionally related cues like the flexing of these muscles (or the tone of the voice for that matter) are to be consubstantially linked with ethical judgement. I can imagine how people of different types could be bound to express their emotions differently, but what about people that are emotionally repressed ?
Post by ayoungspirit on May 1, 2014 5:06:32 GMT -5
sitbone : They can, precisely, and this is the part I have difficulty to grasp. Does that mean that one has to be emotional to be acknowledged as using a feeling function, especially the introverted one ?
