Post by thewildpapillon on Aug 8, 2013 11:45:25 GMT -5
One major thing I don't relate to about the mbti description of this type is being the "party animal". I avoid parties in the traditional sense, partly because I am extremely sensitive to very loud music and being banged around by other people in close proximity on the dance floor. Sometimes I wonder if my Se, rather than manifesting in the stereotypical pleasure seeking "more more MORE" way, causes a high level of sensitivity to sensory overstimulation. I could kind of see how this is related to having Fi as well, because each Fi is very in touch with their personal likes and dislikes... I may, however, be talking nonsense.
I think you have a good point. Functions can manifest in different ways (I hate parties too, by the way. I need my personal space) in different people. I'm not Se, so I can't say anything definitive on that function, but I know my Ne sometimes makes me LESS willing to take risks as it perceives ridiculous, out of proportion possible ramifications and, ironically, I am more open to novelty when I'm also using Si. I don't see why Se couldn't work in a similar way, particularly in the case of SeFi, if in your personal perception the external, concrete perceptions associated with parties is negative. Whereas someone whose Se is also attuned to these sensations (if that's how Se actually works, I am trying to use what I've read here and could be off base, feel free to correct me if so, any Ni/Se folk) but finds them enjoyable might be more drawn to parties. Same functions, similar basic processes, but opposite conclusions and behavior. Which is why behavioral analysis sort of sucks.
To confuse you even more, I've known SeFi (mostly guys apparently) who are hardcore party animals, even trouble-makers, hitting on ladies with an incredible ease, in other words the stereotypical ESFP. I think cognitive functions are not everything, for example the degree of sensitivity and introversion is not explained by this theory as far as I know, there are maybe some predispositions but it's not enough to link it to the behaviour. Maybe high sensitivity and introversion are innate too but are not related to CT (for me at least)...
Post by thewildpapillon on Aug 9, 2013 17:21:22 GMT -5
Oh, I don't doubt there are plenty of SeFi's who meet the stereotype. It makes sense, to a degree, and it even somewhat conforms to Jung's idea of what Se-leads are generally like. Yet, some of us are not that way, so there has to be something else, possibly just not even related to one's cognitive type. I'm thinking of what Nardi said in his google talk about how there's a small chance your brain won't be very much at all like that of another person of your type, and yet there's a much higher likelihood than any two random people of it being similar. So maybe there's some way to arrive at subtypes with even more statistic likelihood to be similar.. or maybe we just have to accept that even strikingly similar function could produce apparently wildly different behavior. *rambling*
One major thing I don't relate to about the mbti description of this type is being the "party animal". I avoid parties in the traditional sense, partly because I am extremely sensitive to very loud music and being banged around by other people in close proximity on the dance floor. Sometimes I wonder if my Se, rather than manifesting in the stereotypical pleasure seeking "more more MORE" way, causes a high level of sensitivity to sensory overstimulation. I could kind of see how this is related to having Fi as well, because each Fi is very in touch with their personal likes and dislikes... I may, however, be talking nonsense.
Great thread. I understand this. I too don't seek out parties, I never have. When I am forced to be social because of obligations, I handle it and leave as soon as is socially acceptable. I can enjoy it, but mostly I am looking at my watch to leave.
I am also very sensitive to noise.. in that people at work joke of me having 'supersonic hearing', as in I'll notice when someone will flip a paper over in the lobby while I'm in my office, "they're almost finished with their paperwork", and random small noises that are indicative of a larger occurrence; it's weird. I really appreciate a very very quiet atmosphere in the morning. I think you're on to something with Se having a different side of the spectrum and being oversensitive to stimulation rather just wanting more of it. The ultra-sensitivity could come into play with several areas as well.
lux- This is what I mean by Se being like a super-power from my Ne/Si perspective. I'm pretty sensitive as well (very low pain tolerance, can't even eat anything with pepper on it, which makes eating out quite a challenge), but never know what to make of them, whereas you sound like you're awesome at integrating Se data (which makes sense, Se->Ni loop). Actually, come to think of it I'm more sensitive to internal-esque sensations, which would make a lot of sense in an Se vs Si kind of way. Forgive the random thought. But, your sense of perception really does sound awesome.
lux- This is what I mean by Se being like a super-power from my Ne/Si perspective. I'm pretty sensitive as well (very low pain tolerance, can't even eat anything with pepper on it, which makes eating out quite a challenge), but never know what to make of them, whereas you sound like you're awesome at integrating Se data (which makes sense, Se->Ni loop). Actually, come to think of it I'm more sensitive to internal-esque sensations, which would make a lot of sense in an Se vs Si kind of way. Forgive the random thought. But, your sense of perception really does sound awesome.
That does make a lot of sense, the Si/Se thought, and by the way, I adore random thoughts, they're typically very insightful. What are your thoughts on Fi having a hand in the process that thewildpapillon had a thought of? Do you think it comes into play in what you experience? I'm working on integrating that but having trouble at this particular moment.
My type's been much debated, so take my Fi with a grain of salt, but I agree a fair chunk of the response comes down to personal preferences. In my personal case, I think Si that gets overwhelmed, but F that reacts, if that makes any sense. Si tells me I'm in pain or uncomfortable, and then my J functions step in to handle the situation, typically by finding a way to leave it (If I am Fi/Te, then Fi decides I need to leave and that I am not happy, then Te figures out how to go about fixing it). I'm still working out my understanding of J functions in general, however, so take this with a grain of salt. I may be blurring functions here, as I'm currently using the unhelpful definition of J as something that's not P while I work on getting down a satisfactory, more concrete concept.
In general SeFi cases, however, I think Fi could very well play a large role. Fi is a very individualistic, personal function, so it makes sense that what exactly it preferred would vary widely by individual and why some SeFis would be party animals, others would avoid parties like the plague and some may just be indifferent.
EDIT: This may be an unreliable source (and likely is, as much of the other stuff is highly suspect), but to further muddle the Se waters, I want to throw in this article: www.keirsey.com/4temps/artisan_overview.asp Internet stereotypes aren't even consistent, as this sounds a lot like traditional N rhetoric (May also help explain why we've had several Se users who strongly identify as N, if we're blurring stereotypes here).
@a I see where you're coming from, absolutely. I haven't watched your type me video yet, it certainly is interesting though.. the differences in what was with what could be..
"In general SeFi cases, however, I think Fi could very well play a large role. Fi is a very individualistic, personal function, so it makes sense that what exactly it preferred would vary widely by individual and why some SeFis would be party animals, others would avoid parties like the plague and some may just be indifferent."
That makes sense too. I'm still trying to understand Fi fully, to be honest. If it does come down to 'personal values' and preferences then what you say would work.
I've read Keirsey before and am familiar with the theory. Thank you for sharing the link. I don't at all see the SP temperament in myself however, I wouldn't even say 'I'm focused on the here and now', to be honest I'm more focused on the future and the now just butts in at times, haha. Since being typed SeFi (by most people, there's still not an official typing, but I think that's the VR consensus thus far) I am still trying to work out my particular flavor of Se, it seems different what I always thought it was or what is out there info wise.. At least the journey is enlightening.
Honestly, I think a lot of the Kiersey stuff isn't that helpful, taking a closer glance at it. I just noticed that it seemed to overlap a lot with N, plus I have a personal thing against internet stereotypes at the moment and it makes me happy seeing articles that go against the normal interpretation (and it's nice that Se is the odd S function for once, as I've heard elsewhere that Si is the one that's most often mistaken for N. Which confirms my opinion that we don't know enough about S functions in general). I think we'll come up with better definitions over time, by observing people with fairly solid typings, and that the final definitions will be really, really general. I do think there's a difference between function pairs, at the very least, can't say as much about order at the moment, but what that difference is, I don't think I can yet fully articulate.
EDIT: The bit about the Se that struck me was the emphasis on being unconventional, which is such a stereotypically N thing, that I couldn't not post it. That and adaptability were general N traits assigned to Se, which made me happy (Not sure how true this is, but at least we have DIFFERENT internet stereotypes floating around)
I think you're correct in that we don't know enough of the 'S' functions. I am leaning toward the possibility that 'S' and 'N' are much closer than I used to think, because I do agree that we use each of them. Si and Ni, I have heard, are harder to tell apart, but not by people that use their respective functions. Which leads me to the sentence you said a while ago by not fully understanding specific functions from your own functions perspective. That I understand absolutely, I agree that "there's a difference between function pairs". I can't imagine what Ne/Si is like.. and that's so interesting to me.. conversely, Ni/Se.. they seem inseparable from each other and thus me. I think I use that oscillation more than Fi/Te... or at least I get it more.
The EDIT, about Se being unconventional .. that I can see. I don't attempt to be different at all, and I'm not when you look at me, but when it comes down to it and one speaks to me... I am and it's something people notice, haha. So yes,that makes sense to me too. I think all the random stereotypes can at least be used as a learning point, but I once again agree with you, the ones here seems a bit different. I love that people using the functions/oscillations are helping to create the definitions. That aside.. I'm wondering why my, and seemingly other Se users experiences are so different than the data out there.
Post by thewildpapillon on Aug 9, 2013 22:39:08 GMT -5
I do hear my fiancee making one little noise across the apartment and go "why are you doing such and such?" Se gets a tiny crumb of data and Ni makes the picture... like a game of wheel of fortune, where just one letter is enough to fill in the rest of the puzzle. On the other hand, I don't know WHAT Si does, but from the sound of it, I'm sure I don't have it! It would probably be useful to be in touch with inner sensations more.
I experience a thing that is common mostly in "Se/Ni" than "Ne/Si". Have you in mind that scene from Sherlock Holmes (The first part where he's alone)?
Just for curiosity, i think this Sherlock in particular is an NeTi. And... i'm not sure how to describe Si to compare it with Se... i remember a post made by L that was quite insightfull, this one
An observation of mine since I started paying attention to peoples eyes is that those who prefer Se/Ni have a certain intensity to them (it matches their eyes, I guess.) It is strong and has a bit of a push to it - a strong current, so it can have a tendency to carry people along with it or really push them away, if that's the desire.
Ne/Si seems lighter and the intensity is different (matching their eyes, again.) I feel easily overwhelmed when there is a lot of Se/Ni in the room, but I am also fascinated by it because it is so strong. I find I have to work extra hard to avoid being caught in the current - sometimes it takes me places I don't want to go. lol. (other times, it's been a lot of fun, though ). Sometimes there are so many different currents going in different directions that I get really confused and really scattered and have no idea what to do.
The feel is different when there is more Ne/Si. I am usually more clear-headed and my mind freezes up less.
It probably sounds a bit crazy, but that is how I experience it.