I'm not exactly sure where to put this.. so I'll just put it here.
After reading the "Se"nsitivity? thread I noticed that a couple of Si users talked about how sensitive they are to internal bodily changes, and I realized how unaware I can be of them. I also started reflecting on how I am quick to react to my external environment (noise, smell, light changes, etc) but not my internal one (hunger, particular tastes, approaching pain, etc.) I know that Se is often seen as the 'more pleasure seeking' to put it in a few words and I think that that definition tends to be a mistaken combination of internal and external sensations. From what I've read on Si it tends to be a map, but a personal one.. could it also be, on a more visceral level, noticed internal reaction? Since it's all connected cognitively it makes sense to me to have it manifest itself in physical ways as well.
I was wondering if a way to understand the differences between Se and Si would be where does the reaction present itself, is one more reactive to things outside of themselves (Se) on inside themselves (Si)?
I could be so way off in this thought, and I really don't mind being wrong, so I'd like to hear what Si users and Se uses have to say on these questions.
Si doesn't really have to do with being aware of your body as far as I know. "Sensing" is kind of a weird word for the function because it fits and it doesn't fit at the same time.
Si as well as every other function has to do with information, whether it be processing or absorption, whatever. The functions just describe brain activity and how the brain does things I believe.
I'm really not sure about actual sensory stimulation and these two functions...at all. I'm inclined to believe that there is no difference and it varies between every individual but I could be wrong.
To address your question, introverted functions are reactive and extroverted functions are proactive. Si reacts and forms a literal map of information based things absorbed through Ne, and Ni reacts and forms an abstract map of information based on things absorbed through Se.
^^ Thanks for the link! I haven't studied Socionics in depth, but I'll look over more of the articles and acclimate myself with the different information.
Something else that goes with this thought, since everyone uses some sort of sensing and obviously that sensing would be connected with the brain, it would come down to the way one processed the sensing information.. Do you (collective you, not you you) react externally to your world or internally to your world...Do you bring the world in to asses it and make sense of it.. a ladder or structure, or does one join in and become a part of it... like melt? <-- I may delete or add to that as it's not a complete thought as of yet.
My first thought with the article on Si and Se was it was a bit more of a personality oriented way of explaining it, aggressive vs. passive, to shorten up my 1st impression of it. I can see it to an extent, but it doesn't hit home with me, I only speak of my own experience as it's what I know, but, I'm not aggressive in action, and I dislike when others do it too, it feels rude to me.
Si doesn't really have to do with being aware of your body as far as I know. "Sensing" is kind of a weird word for the function because it fits and it doesn't fit at the same time.
Si as well as every other function has to do with information, whether it be processing or absorption, whatever. The functions just describe brain activity and how the brain does things I believe.
I'm really not sure about actual sensory stimulation and these two functions...at all. I'm inclined to believe that there is no difference and it varies between every individual but I could be wrong.
To address your question, introverted functions are reactive and extroverted functions are proactive. Si reacts and forms a literal map of information based things absorbed through Ne, and Ni reacts and forms an abstract map of information based on things absorbed through Se.
Thanks! I read your description of Si and it was fantastic, I'm going to go reread it actually to understand more of an Si perspective.
I'm not saying that it IS having an understanding of ones body, only that it may be a piece of the puzzle like the top left corner or something... I agree that functions describe brain activity, but I would think that activity would have an impact in self (body) as well, as it's all connected. Since they can be seen in conversation they are manifesting in the physical world, but I started thinking about where else they could be recognized.
"I'm really not sure about actual sensory stimulation and these two functions...at all. I'm inclined to believe that there is no difference and it varies between every individual but I could be wrong."
I like this thought too, but I'm on the other end of the spectrum on it, so far...
I love all the new ideas, I'm going to think on them more.
I have been trying to make sense of this, and I have been attempting to read Jung's Personality Types to help me. psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm I have not actually thoroughly read this before, so my observations could be off. My understanding of the functions is actually quite limited. I have read too many different interpretations of the functions, I think.
If Si is based on the subjective experience to "objective stimulus"... It reminds me of what I learned in childbirth class about how to manage pain. It seems that there is a strong connection between your belief about what is happening and the amount of pain that you feel you are experiencing in your body. So, the subjective does have quite a lot of influence over how we feel things internally. Now I don't know exactly how that applies to type, except that we were introduced to a variety of different exercises in hopes that one would work for us (different type, different strategy?). There is teaching the kinowledge of what is actually physically happening, the classic lamaze breathing, using something to intensely focus on like a picture, and various relaxation exercises including mental relaxation and muscle relaxation. It's been quite a while, so I'm sure I missed some. For me, what worked the best was slow deep breathing and consciously relaxing the muscles in my body by using a strange form of "visualization" that involved me imagining how it felt to sink into a warm sand like substance...it's easier to visualize than explain. In the end, at least as far as I understand, the point is to allow yourself to relax your muscles. Less tension, less pain. The source of a lot of tension is mental (at least in my experience).
I found this interesting as well since I am typed as Ne-dom (under 8. intuition):
The primary function of intuition is to transmit mere images, or perceptions of relations and conditions, which could be gained by the other functions, either not at all, or only by very roundabout ways. Such images have the value of definite discernments, and have a decisive bearing upon action, whenever intuition is given the chief weight; in which case, psychic adaptation is based almost exclusively upon intuition. Thinking, feeling, and sensation are relatively repressed; of these, sensation is the one principally affected, because, as the conscious function of sense, it offers the greatest obstacle to intuition. Sensation disturbs intuition's clear, unbiassed, na[umlaut]ive awareness with its importunate sensuous stimuli; for these direct the glance upon the physical superficies, hence upon the very things round and beyond which intuition tries to peer. But since intuition, in the extraverted attitude, has a prevailingly objective orientation, it actually comes very near to sensation; indeed, the expectant attitude towards outer objects may, with almost equal probability, avail itself of sensation. Hence, for intuition really to become paramount, sensation must to a large extent be suppressed. I am now speaking of sensation as the simple and direct sense-reaction, an almost definite physiological and psychic datum. This must be expressly established beforehand, because, if I ask the intuitive how he is [p. 463] orientated, he will speak of things which are quite indistinguishable from sense-perceptions. Frequently he will even make use of the term 'sensation'. He actually has sensations, but he is not guided by them per se, merely using them as directing-points for his distant vision. They are selected by unconscious expectation. Not the strongest sensation, in the physiological sense, obtains the crucial value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value happens to become considerably enhanced by reason of the intuitive's unconscious attitude. In this way it may eventually attain the leading position, appearing to the intuitive's consciousness indistinguishable from a pure sensation. But actually it is not so.
and under 9. Extraverted Intuition Types:
For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation.
What I feel internally does depend a lot on my state of mind at the time.
Perhaps this applies, perhaps it doesn't. Like I said, I don't feel like I have a very good understanding of the functions.
(My thought was that much of the feedback about Si came from those typed as NeFi, so this might help make some sense of it... or not.)
Last Edit: Aug 11, 2013 16:08:57 GMT -5 by anagrams
I have been trying to make sense of this, and I have been attempting to read Jung's Personality Types to help me. psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm I have not actually thoroughly read this before, so my observations could be off. My understanding of the functions is actually quite limited. I have read too many different interpretations of the functions, I think.
If Si is based on the subjective experience to "objective stimulus"... It reminds me of what I learned in childbirth class about how to manage pain. It seems that there is a strong connection between your belief about what is happening and the amount of pain that you feel you are experiencing in your body. So, the subjective does have quite a lot of influence over how we feel things internally. Now I don't know exactly how that applies to type, except that we were introduced to a variety of different exercises in hopes that one would work for us (different type, different strategy?). There is teaching the kinowledge of what is actually physically happening, the classic lamaze breathing, using something to intensely focus on like a picture, and various relaxation exercises including mental relaxation and muscle relaxation. It's been quite a while, so I'm sure I missed some. For me, what worked the best was slow deep breathing and consciously relaxing the muscles in my body by using a strange form of "visualization" that involved me imagining how it felt to sink into a warm sand like substance...it's easier to visualize than explain. In the end, at least as far as I understand, the point is to allow yourself to relax your muscles. Less tension, less pain. The source of a lot of tension is mental (at least in my experience).
I found this interesting as well since I am typed as Ne-dom (under 8. intuition):
The primary function of intuition is to transmit mere images, or perceptions of relations and conditions, which could be gained by the other functions, either not at all, or only by very roundabout ways. Such images have the value of definite discernments, and have a decisive bearing upon action, whenever intuition is given the chief weight; in which case, psychic adaptation is based almost exclusively upon intuition. Thinking, feeling, and sensation are relatively repressed; of these, sensation is the one principally affected, because, as the conscious function of sense, it offers the greatest obstacle to intuition. Sensation disturbs intuition's clear, unbiassed, na[umlaut]ive awareness with its importunate sensuous stimuli; for these direct the glance upon the physical superficies, hence upon the very things round and beyond which intuition tries to peer. But since intuition, in the extraverted attitude, has a prevailingly objective orientation, it actually comes very near to sensation; indeed, the expectant attitude towards outer objects may, with almost equal probability, avail itself of sensation. Hence, for intuition really to become paramount, sensation must to a large extent be suppressed. I am now speaking of sensation as the simple and direct sense-reaction, an almost definite physiological and psychic datum. This must be expressly established beforehand, because, if I ask the intuitive how he is [p. 463] orientated, he will speak of things which are quite indistinguishable from sense-perceptions. Frequently he will even make use of the term 'sensation'. He actually has sensations, but he is not guided by them per se, merely using them as directing-points for his distant vision. They are selected by unconscious expectation. Not the strongest sensation, in the physiological sense, obtains the crucial value, but any sensation whatsoever whose value happens to become considerably enhanced by reason of the intuitive's unconscious attitude. In this way it may eventually attain the leading position, appearing to the intuitive's consciousness indistinguishable from a pure sensation. But actually it is not so.
and under 9. Extraverted Intuition Types:
For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation.
What I feel internally does depend a lot on my state of mind at the time.
Perhaps this applies, perhaps it doesn't. Like I said, I don't feel like I have a very good understanding of the functions.
(My thought was that much of the feedback about Si came from those typed as NeFi, so this might help make some sense of it... or not.)
Great post, and thoughts, thank you! I get the mind over matter instance in regards to your childbirth experience. How ones frame of mind will dictate the physicality of ones body. I've experienced that and I would suppose most if not all have at some point. Of course not everyone doing it in the exact example you had given, childbirth. I can think of everyday occurrences where that happens, it's like setting discomfort aside while you do other things.. and by the time you realize you did that, it's either gone or upon taking notice once again it vengefully comes back. An example could be a headache that you had, then got busy and 'forgot' about it, then someone says, "How's your headache?" until that moment it had been gone, but now is back. Honestly, I think the state of ones mind is more important than outside influences upon it, because at that point they can be integrated together, but I think it has to start in the mind, for myself at least.
I too noticed that the examples I was thinking of came from NeFi types and wondered if there was a connection with that in particular. I (think) understand what you're saying in that it had something to do with being an Ne dom and having the 'object' ignored until it broke free and made itself known (at least that is my interpretation please correct me if wrong.)
I have more ideas on this but I am short on time atm, I'll work through them and see if anything is new, or if they're just recycled ideas.
Truthfully I have not figured this out yet. I mostly threw this info out in hopes that others would contribute their thoughts on it - to see if it could apply - and hopefully to be able to make more sense of it. So, I am looking forward to any thoughts you have on it.
The first quote may have more to do with how Ne can often appear to be like Se (and vice versa, I imagine), and less to do with the topic of this thread. I admit that I have trouble keeping straight what exactly is meant when Jung writes 'sensation' here. A quote from the Si section may have been more appropriate - (the link should bring anyone interested to the document and then they can read the whole section on introverted sensation if they like). Anyway, here's a snippet that might apply.
from III/6. Sensation: "Whereas, the extraverted sensation-type is determined by the intensity of the objective influence, the introverted type is orientated by the intensity of the subjective sensation-constituent released by the objective stimulus. "
The language is interesting here. The Se type is "determined" by the intensity. The Si type is "orientated" by the intensity.
"There are no new ideas. There are only new ways of making them felt." Audre Lorde
(hahaha. "felt"...."sensation"...I am easily amused.)
Last Edit: Aug 11, 2013 23:09:36 GMT -5 by anagrams
from III/6. Sensation: "Whereas, the extraverted sensation-type is determined by the intensity of the objective influence, the introverted type is orientated by the intensity of the subjective sensation-constituent released by the objective stimulus. "
The language is interesting here. The Se type is "determined" by the intensity. The Si type is "orientated" by the intensity.
"There are no new ideas. There are only new ways of making them felt." Audre Lorde
(hahaha. "felt"...."sensation"...I am easily amused.)
anagrams, I like the idea of random bits of information and seeing where they lead. so thanks again for sharing.
Something that stuck out to me was "determined by the intensity of the objective influence", that would completely go along with the "Se"nsitivity thread, in that case too much intensity being unpleasant. I've said this before, not here but in conversations with people, for me to fall in love with music it has to be intense, and that's a word that gets used a lot to describe me actually (I thought it may have to do with sx dom, but...)
Something else I just thought of, so 'determined by the intensity' music 'pumping one up' instead of just being fun or nice to listen to?
How i experience the internal world: Choosing the right pot to cook something, i hit one, that sound... reminds me immediately this song Eating peanuts... i remember that sound... immediately plays heresy by nine inch nails (from 2:30) in rotation. Writing to a friend "i'm the one..." , i'm the one... who knocks? And plays a scene from breaking bad in my head. Jogging, i close the eyes... i'm in a metaphysical world, i feel my body moving through space, every little imbalances, step after step. I feel every imperfection in the ground. Composing a song, i put many sounds... but there's one... one that isn't in its right place (writing this, my head plays the radiohead song), i find it, i'll change it, where it has to go? I try to put it here and there... ok, i feel good leaving it there.
How i experience the external world: Generally i'm not very down with details, unless i'm concentrated on it... the game of the glasses and the ball... almost impossible for me to loose that game. My brother enters in my room to scare me... but i ear immediately something moving behind me, then a little sound on the ground, i recognize his pace: "G(...)le, stop it". Someone up the stairs... i recognize his pace... this is my brother. Now my father, now my mother. Someone opens the door... this is my sister, she always makes this sound while opening it. I'm in the kitchen... my little brother try to be sneak stoling something at my left... i say, without moving my eyes: "leave it where it is".
So your external world will consistently remind you of things that are on your 'map' and then make them recognizable for future reference?
Hmmm... I'm not down with details either but changes in external environment I do notice.. like sometimes I feel... like a T-Rex..
No, kidding, more as in movement will just 'grab' me and I can't help but focus on it. Something moves and it's like 'zap!' then I go back to not caring, unless it's dangerous, which is probably why it's so widely used in the animal kingdom in the first place. I'll be very aware of most changes in the environment, light, smell, temp, if the music is good, how the air feels, if people have been arguing, etc. I just realized that it's always the changes I respond to, I notice when things are different.. not like someone changing their hairstyle or anything like that, I never notice that stuff. But, if my environment changes with me it I'm very very attuned to it and how to react to the new information. Differences are fascinating.
Lx Very interesting, so basically, you're affected by and react to real time changes of environment. This is hard for me, not that I'm not aware of what's happening but it's like there's a "barrier" between me and the outside, it can trigger thoughts (usually not right at the moment but as an aftermath) but therr's no merging with the outside happenings. The only time I've experienced it was in rollercoasters (when rverything is so fast you can't think and are "forced" to loose yourself).
Very interesting, so basically, you're affected by and react to real time changes of environment.
Yes, I would definitely agree to that.
The language 'to lose yourself' is not how I think of it though.. I'm not saying you're wrong.. just opening myself to different thoughts. It's more finding yourself.. and that's I think where my issue with Se terminology comes into play.. I think people picture Se like a 'crazy party with dancing and tons of people, sweat, buffets, clowns and adventure.. oh! and exercise and sky-diving.. (/hyperbole) all to feel things, and then 'losing themselves' and merging with the environment in the process. I think it's opposite for me, I don't 'lose' myself in any of the above, the above doesn't trigger Se in me or anything like the above, unless it's a mix of driving/music/thinking.. Incidentally, I would never never go skydiving.. not my thing, unless I was on a plane that was crashing and I had a parachute, then, yes, I would.
So... I don't lose myself in reactions to my environment, I find myself, as in naturally I'm apart of this world and it's only my brain disconnecting me from it, giving me an 'I' when naturally it would be an 'All', but when I relinquish control, which for me mostly happens in reactions, and they, like you, tend be forced by the environment, I find myself and how natural it was, which is perhaps not like how you experience it, perhaps it feels odd afterword or foreign? IFor me it's comfortable and just there.. perhaps so used that I don't see anything odd about it.. *stimulus, reaction* So Se could really be the above for many, but, that's not my flavor of Se and it's unrecognizable to me.
I'm short on time, and I'm sure I'll have more thoughts on this later on.
I've noticed that music doesn't necessarily 'take me back' or even necessarily remind me of something, it can of course, but for the most part music will create how feel in the moment. Sometimes it's creation, and sometimes it's enhancement. This made me think of Se/Si, I am very easily affected by the mood of my environment, (I can choose to hide it quite easily, but it's still there) and I can change my mood based on the new emotions and feelings that music will create. I can pull myself in and out of different moods by altering my environment to suit, Se/Ni, and I think Ni over Fi because I spiral into my mind and then come out clearer than before. I noticed this (where else) in my car on my way to work yesterday. However, in this, I would think Fi would have to agree to my Se whims, as clubbing for example, would make me hate life.
Is Si like this too, or is it, 'remind one of something', and the mood is what it is remembered, as I'd imagine it is? Thanks!
Addition: Not that I think music necessarily works differently in conjunction with CT, but, I'm sort of thinking (long term) of questions that could be asked in addition with visual reading that could lead one to a conclusion as to how someone viewed their world. Particularly in a learning/teaching capacity, as I believe that teaching should be catered to how someone learns, and I'm trying to pinpoint things, so if I seem repetitive, it's because I want to make sure of accuracy, rather than assumptions. Also.. now I'm just writing about things I notice about myself and it's cathartic to write about it, plus it may help in understanding Se, since I do think there's more to it than what is written thus far.
Lx Personally, I wouldn't say I'm usually affected by the ambient mood (maybe I've been but it didn't strike me then), rather by the presence of certain persons with whom I have a good/bad vibe. It's probably related to Si since it's based on my experiences with them (?). Another thing that I observe is I'm often painfully aware of my internal state, whether bodily sensations or my mood which seems to have a life of its own and unfortunately conditions too often how I will handle the tasks and persons during the day. I don't know if it's CT related or just human nature, sometimes I feel I'm slave to my mood and how my body feels to the point of cancelling activities and days of work (it didn't help me keep a job!), probably I lack will power or there's something wrong with my physiology but I definitely too sensitive. Sensitive to my internal life that is. Somehow, there could be chaos, loud noises (still it can be too much lol I'm not deaf either), I'm not that bothered as long as I can be left alone sometimes. Yeah, this "resistance" to outside happenings can be partly explained by Si but also enhanced by Fi. Or maybe I'm influenced but inconsciously and the repercussions are felt internally and later, not synchronized, as if I digested them somehow. After all, if it's introverted, it means subjective, a very personal and precise/elaborate experience of sensations. As a child for example, I was particularly nitpicky with food, I was a pain in the a** for my parents Fortunately, growing up, I'm much more open to the food I used to hate even like them now.
Last Edit: Aug 21, 2013 9:08:46 GMT -5 by peppergirl