I cannot see or project my imagination in the external world or when I close my eyes. This has made me doubt that I am intuitive. How is visualization related to the functions?
Post by chickenalfredo on Feb 20, 2014 21:48:53 GMT -5
what exactly would be defined as visualization here? for example, would thinking your thoughts in voice form fall under that category? because i once new someone who claimed that they didn't think in language or voice form...I'm if that's relevant to this discussion...
This is fascinating. Has it always been this way for you? What happens when you read? What is your experience of dreaming?
P.S. I doubt this has much to do with having Ne or Ni over Se or Si. I am Si-lead and visual imagery is central to my consciousness. I realize this is a highly subjective rationalization, but if an Si-lead can rely heavily on imagery, I'd expect there are Ni and Ne-leads/supports who don't.
Yes always. When I read I just get the meaning. Its not a voice if you were to say muscle memory is not conscious but just there transparent to actual qualia. In dreaming I have no volition its like the daze of watching television half conscious in the transition to sleep. The times I did have volition (about 5 in my life) I thought were lucid dreams but recognized they might just be the norm for most people.
I might be NiFe. Erifrail told me so on another forum. Do you know how this type functions?
Post by chickenalfredo on Feb 21, 2014 16:45:03 GMT -5
That's interesting, because the person who I'm thinking of I've suspected of being FeNi, I'll have to ask around to my FeNi friends to see if I find something similar happening there.
Mh... let's share something: In my mind, i can picture anything i want. There are some moments when it is difficult, and others where it is extremely easy. Like, in the first part of the morning is extremely easy, the central parts of the day it gets more difficult, and during the night it becomes easy again. I can picture something in front of me, or something that is totally unrelated with the environement around me, either with eyes closed or open. But it is never limpid like in reality, like if it something invisible but i can perceive its presence like a transparent ghost. Sometimes, and it takes more effort, i can even fake three-dimensional objects, feeling the resistance, the weight, the space they occupy... but for some reasons when i do that it can only be in black and white. If i try do imagine colors in this way i cannot decide it, it changes randomly. I can do it to a certain degree, but the more i decide the colours, the more i loose the sensation of "presence" in my mind. About the sounds... that is extremely easy for me. I can create sounds, i can create voices, music, entire arrangements. Sometimes when i compose songs i use this way to have a first "draft". Sometimes i have a sound and a melody clear in my head, and i try to reach as much as possible that ideal.
For myself (TiNe), have a very similar experience to Heron. I can easily project an imagination into the outside or inside world, but it's not exactly "visible".
The best way I can describe it is to say there are two interlaced images in my mind. It's like I have 2 vision "layers" and the two never actually/literally touch each other (....but now I imagine this is what hallucination induces?). And sound is a bit the same way, although I tend to be able to almost hear things literally, just via imagination. If I am daydreaming, I do actually hear sounds sometimes.
But although I can do imagery, I find I mostly use language nowadays. When it comes to abstract ideas, I am very verbal. I hear the words I read, in my head... and when I read some concept I don't normally see imagery as much as I just ...feel information shifting/reorganizing in my brain.... and if I "get" the concept, then the reorganized structure "feels right". The feeling is almost aesthetic or geometric; like feeling the couch is too far against the wall and needs to be moved more toward the center. If a concept is lopsided, I get the same sort of discomfort.
That's a question I think about very often. I think there is a word for imagination of sounds, words or musics without real external sounds emission. I just can't remember what it is, but it is known by musicotherapists or musicologists.
I can relate a bit on what some of you say, although I don't really understand what is refered to by "two interlaced images in my mind".
Actually, I would (try to) summarize my imagination processes by hierarchy of to what degree the process is important/present to me, as follow:
First, musical/sound memories and creations. It is a very certain constant for me since my childhood. I can create within my head, or just hear memorized and existing creations.
Then, imagery and verbal. I do not really know what comes first between both, but it is all very here. Imagery seems more stable, because its imagination is generally happening in a realistic way (sometimes soft surrealism, but very inspired by external reality, landscapes, ambient). It put me like into a different place (or a memorized place) and the experiment is quite immersive and stimulating to me.
Then, I guess, is verbal. I hear words within my head while I read or just think, like Erifrail and some others said, but I would add that it takes form of dialogs very often within me (often weighing ideas between each other, trying to make one agressing the other but none generally really wins as it finally ends disolved). However it starts to become not a so stable imagination and I may instantly forget what I exactly said, the way I said it, and even the idea behind. That explains why I constantly have to think about the words I use, and why I use it not in the very common way/context very often).
And finally, aesthetic geometry, structure (what Erifrail called "feeling" of "information reorganizing"). I wonder if I have to put it first with musical and sounds memories, as musics is mathematics in a way. But the fact is, I do not have the same absolute relation I have with pur logics as I have with musics. Cause I experiment musics imagination in a very instantaneous way, not sure it is really about hard rational construction. But yes, when I compose musics, then I often use that structure ability to help me materialize and make my creation consistent. So, reorganization is there but quite instable to me, probably influencing verbal stability too.
That's it. But I still have not found my own type, so I guess my experience is not completely useful for now.
Post by At-Ease Zazeef on Apr 15, 2016 20:28:41 GMT -5
I'm really glad someone brought up this topic, the topic of the manifestation of psychological phenomenon in the form of internal dialogue and imagery. It's actually central to my own theories regarding the question of just what exactly are the cognitive functions? For all my study of Jung's words on the psychological types and an inordinate amount of thought poured into the matter, I never arrived at a clear conception of just what it was he was trying to say they are, and, from a pragmatic point, what they might need to be for their study to actually be of worth to anyone.
I'm not sure how far along in my thoughts I was when I started to consider that people may in fact have wildly different modes of consciousness, subjective landscapes which they experienced that should an individual somehow be able to visit the mind of another and experience reality as that other individual experienced it, he or she would be completely blown away by the strangeness not only of this new mindset but also the peculiarity of their own experience, which they of course couldn't have helped but taken for granted as being the natural and perhaps ONLY way of things. These various, variable components of which consciousness is constituted might very well be psychological functions themselves, I began to suspect, and might just be the underlying factors from which the behaviors and attitudes Jung was observing stemmed.
I've kept these suspicions largely to myself for several years now, and, shortly after first having them, developed them into a rather large (though necessarily incomplete) theory, which, without a great number of folks to query concerning the nature of their subjective experience or any sort of formal methodology to structure such a study, pretty much let it go dormant in the back of my mind and a few old notebooks.
That article you linked, aether , I happened across several years ago now and still have saved as a bookmark in my phone. Small internet we live in. :)
I'm not about to dump the entirety of my thoughts on the matter here in this thread, of course, but if folks would like to get a rough outline of my theory and perhaps continue to contribute their own psychological experiences (as has already begun here), I'd be happy to open up a thread for such discussion. As much thought as I put into it, it seems a bit of a shame to let it go to waste, and, despite as much thought as I've put into it, I'm more than happy to continue developing (i.e. change) my thoughts on the matter as new data becomes available. Given the sheer enormity and complexity of the matter at hand (it being nothing less than the anatomy of the mind), I really have nothing to offer but a general sort of lattice to start organizing data, and I'm sure that shape of the lattice is far from accurate in it's ability to constellate the data points that might become available to it or serve as a model which might yield useful predictions.
So yeah! Outer space ain't the next frontier, folks; it's inner space! :)
Last Edit: Apr 15, 2016 20:41:42 GMT -5 by At-Ease Zazeef