I want to open a thread on Autism spectrum disorders (especially Asperger's and High functioning autism) and its connection to cognitive functioning, as I've very recently bumped into a possibility that we have a person with Asperger's in my family. It's still on the research state, but my curiosity is high on this issue, not least because ASD most likely has a genetic background. Whether or not we get a diagnosis, it's certain that we run ASD kind of behavioral tendencies in the family.
I don't know much about the neuroanatomical background of autism, but it is certainly a more complex difference than only cortex level anatomy and functioning. However, I'm interested to know whether there are some cognitive patterns ASD's seem to have. I remember having read that autistic people have changes in the frontal lobes, especially mirror neuron areas. One hypothesis is that developmental problem with mirror neuron system is one cause for the social impairment of Asperger's Syndrome people. Was it Nardi who said that autistic people usually show high F8/low F7?
Another hypothesis (Simon Baron-Cohen) states that autistic brain shows an "extreme male brain": high in systemizing and low in empathizing. This seems to have connection to cognitive functions and types. To speculate, it feels that certain types are more prone to show behavior/functioning similar to ASD and that people with ASD would have certain types. I'm speaking of high Te/Ti.
You can imagine I've had some thoughts about my own type and ASD, especially as recently there has been more and more discussion about underdiagnosed female ASD's. Cultural and biological (e.g. hormonal) differences make the phenotypes of male and female ASD distinct.
Post by chaoticbrain on Aug 9, 2013 7:15:35 GMT -5
I think erifrail said he thinks Fi leads are most prone to aspergers/autism. That makes sense. I'd guess that NiTe is another type that is likely to have aspergers.
Thanks! I tried to look for threads about this but didn't find any.
Fi makes sense, especially high F8 use. In the brainscan estimates here types that have least activity in the mirror neuron areas (T5, F7) and more in F8 are TeNi, FiSe and FiNe, TeNi being the most clear in this (red in F8, black in F7 and T5).
Thanks! I tried to look for threads about this but didn't find any.
Fi makes sense, especially high F8 use. In the brainscan estimates here types that have least activity in the mirror neuron areas (T5, F7) and more in F8 are TeNi, FiSe and FiNe, TeNi being the most clear in this (red in F8, black in F7 and T5).
MsLajlaa Do you know what exactly the mirror neuron areas are? Am I a fool for assuming that they're related to mirroring behavior? If not, Nardi's study indicated that mirroring is associated with high Ne use... Maybe this is somehow related? Maybe not...
MNs have received a great deal of attention from specialists and in the scientificand public media. Hailed as βcells that read mindsβ(Blakesee, 2006), βthe neurons that shaped civilizationβ (Ramachandran, 2009), and a βrevolutionβ in understanding social behavior (Iacoboni, 2008), MNs have been ascribed a wide variety of functions. The primary candidates relate to action understanding(Gallese & Sinigaglia, 2011; Rizzolatti, Fadiga, Gallese, & Fogassi, 1996),imitation (Iacoboni et al., 1999) and language processing (Rizzolatti & Arbib,1998). However, signifying the way in which MNs have captured the attention and imagination of neuroscientists, psychologists and philosophers, they have also been implicated in: embodied simulation (Aziz-Zadeh, Wilson, Rizzolatti, &Iacoboni, 2006), empathy (Avenanti, Bueti, Galati, & Aglioti, 2005), emotion recognition (Enticott, Johnston, Herring, Hoy, & Fitzgerald, 2008), intention-reading (Iacoboni et al., 2005), language acquisition (Theoret & Pascual-Leone,2002), language evolution (Arbib, 2005), manual communication (Rizzolatti et al.,1996), sign language processing (Corina & Knapp, 2006), speech perception(Glenberg et al., 2008), speech production (Kuhn & Brass, 2008), music processing (Gridley & Hoff, 2006), sexual orientation (Ponseti et al., 2006), aesthetic experience (Cinzia & Gallese, 2009). In addition, it has been suggested that MN dysfunction contributes to a number of disorders, including autism(Dapretto et al., 2006; Nishitani, Avikainen, & Hari, 2004; J. H. Williams, Whiten,Suddendorf, & Perrett, 2001), schizophrenia (Arbib & Mundhenk, 2005), Downβs syndrome (Virji-Babul et al., 2008), multiple sclerosis (Rocca et al., 2008), cigarette addiction (Pineda & Oberman, 2006), and obesity (Cohen, 2008).
Related to CT, Fe has been described as having most closely these kind of function areas. So high Fi would make sense with regard to ASD, like Erifrail said in the other thread. Thanks a lot, anagrams, I wouldn't have found that thread without your link! Very interesting, by the way, that you have same kind of issues in the family. We have a lot in common!
MsLajlaa, we do have a lot in common (and we don't even share the same time or belong to the same quadrant) .
My son has never been officially diagnosed, but he would qualify as having a mild version of ASD. My nephew has been officially diagnosed (my sister was reluctant because she did not want to attach a label to him). My best friend's son was diagnosed as well (she was relieved to find a possible explanation for the behavior). So I am actually pretty familiar with the "symptoms".
anagrams: We're in the "diagnostic process" with my son right now. He has ASD features, whether he ends up an AS or not. To be honest, I wouldn't mind having a diagnosis as it would shed light on so many things and explain issues that we have struggled with, even if that kind of a tag is never conclusive and cannot capture the whole person. I've been thinking of him a lot in this context, but cannot say for sure what his CT type is.
I have some ASD features, too, but most probably not enough to fill diagnostic criteria. That's why I'm interested in playing with the idea that my cognitive functions "alone" could give mild ASD kind of appearance (including inner processes and outer behavior) to me. Another option is that I have ASD brain/body system and that results in me having these kind of cognitive functions (high TeFi specifically). Both options are possible for my son, too.
MsLajlaa- Best of luck. I hope they're able to offer you some advice, whether he is diagnosed or not. Even if he doesn't have ASD, I'd imagine the right psychologist could still steer you in the right direction for how to best help him thrive. And if he does, then hopefully your school will be able to accommodate him better once he has an official diagnosis.
That said, I do agree Te/Fi seems most likely to be paired with ASD, although I'd imagine this isn't 100% and some of it could just be an overlap of symptoms. In addition to the neurological data, trouble externalizing feelings and relating to others seems to me like it could be related to weak Fe use (although I'm just guessing here, and I certainly don't want to imply that any functional pair is equivalent with a medical diagnosis). I do also see how Se/Ni could be related, as some AS patients tend to be focused on a limited number of things, which seems more Se/Ni than Ne/Si to me (although this is a weak link, IMO).
MsLajlaa, I hope this goes well for you also. All of this is hard on both the child and the parent. I had quite a few of my own issues bubble up to the surface that I had to work through (still working on some. ).
My friend's son is going through counseling and coaching in social skills. It really seems to be helping him. My nephew also went through the social skills classes and also takes anti-anxiety meds. Last I saw him, he seemed a changed person (for the better). He seemed much more comfortable in social settings. So, I think it can be a very good thing. I think a lot of my sister's initial resistance was because it was the school trying to push multiple labels on him. Once they moved across the country and changed schools, things went much more smoothly, she had less need to be defensive, and he started getting help that actually seemed to be helpful.
I am not certain of my son's type, but I am pretty sure that he shares the same functions as you - Te/Fi and Ni/Se. I can't be certain about the other two boys, though I strongly suspect that my friend's son is also a Te/Fi user.
From the OP of the Physics and FiNe thread: "In the failure of being unable to communicate with the social world due to lead-Fi, the impulse is to utilize Te to manage reality."
To have high Fi as a possible factor is an interesting thought. I was thinking my son was a high Te user, but I keep thinking his eyes look more Se than Ni. In most of my son's pictures from elementary school, he has this stiff, pained expression on his face. I assumed it was because he was forcing a smile, but now I wonder if it was Fi showing through... because of all of the slack he got about his smile, he has since given up smiling and has switched to a (very attractive) smirk. I will have to get to know FiSe signals a bit better before I can decide whether or not it is an option for him though. If Fi deals with "private emotions and convictions", my son as an Fi-lead could make sense.
My friend's son has an expression (smile and eyes) similar to Linus Torvald's in the FiNe Larin Series video.
A and anagrams: Thank you! It's good to hear about real life examples, and how the process goes in different countries. ASD is one of the latest possibilities that has been taken up by experts with regard to my son, and it might turn wrong. But it would explain some issues very well. "Problem" with finding a suitable neuro-psychological explanation for him is that all things that are concerning are very mildly so. In the end it can just be a matter of personality preference, temperament, slow maturation, cognitive functions.
I think my son has SeNi for perceiving, because he has major zone-outs and drooping eyelids. His stare toggles a lot, but it's more his head than eyes, lol. But because of that fluid and random moving I've also thought Ne-lead. I'm uncertain of the physical expressions of the judging functions, even if he psychologically speaking seems to use FiTe. His smile rises up vertically somewhat but it also has that Fe 'lights the whole face' joker smile effect. He fits rather well the INJ child description, but that's not CT.
Sometimes you get an impression of ASD descriptions that they lack emotions altogether, which is why I didn't consider ASD as a possibility earlier, but I've come to realize after reading more that it is not the case. ASD's can be emotionally sensitive, but they share emotions and act on them in socially "awkward" ways. Of course, if majority of people acted like them, it would not be awkward. That is one reason why I'm a little hesitant to use "disorder" label, because that is partly a question of viewpoint. From the ASD angle other people are disordered and behave weirdly. From my personal perspective I don't always understand what could be described as high Fe behavior (group ecstasy, confirming to other's expectations that is close to codependency etc.), but I wouldn't call Fe a disorder. On the contrary, I've tried to learn some of the more accommodating social behavior.
Fi/Fe difference captures this well, at least how I get them. (Disclaimer: I may be wrong in my understanding of the functions.) Fe empathy is more socially aware and active. Fi keeps the emotions within and acts with Te. This is very true for myself; I'm concerned of people's worries and want to help, but I do it by talking and analyzing in a way that can seem blunt because it lacks physical expression of emotions. However, that's what psychotherapists actually do: they give a neutral mirror for the patients to deal with their emotions. (My therapist once said I'd be a good psychoanalyst!) That can still be misleading in everyday life, especially if the cultural/social context values Fe expression high.
Last Edit: Aug 10, 2013 3:43:39 GMT -5 by MsLajlaa
ASD's can be emotionally sensitive, but they share emotions and act on them in socially "awkward" ways. Of course, if majority of people acted like them, it would not be awkward. That is one reason why I'm a little hesitant to use "disorder" label, because that is partly a question of viewpoint. From the ASD angle other people are disordered and behave weirdly.
I agree with this (and everything else you wrote, but especially this. ). I've realized from many attempts to try to explain and justify other people's behavior to my son and the other boy, that often these kids are right - people can be weird and confusing.
I grew up with (what could be described as) a lot of Fi in my house when I was a kid. I tend to give the message to my kids that it is okay to be a little different from everyone else and its okay if not everyone likes you. A little "weirdness" is a good thing. (spreading a little Fi pride. lol.)
I did the personality test for my son and got INJ as well.
His smile rises up vertically somewhat but it also has that Fe 'lights the whole face' joker smile effect.
After working in an Autism Clinic I would say that autism and Aspergers is not related to type. There is huge diversity in the personalities of those with autism. One of them I worked with was an FeSi. He certainly has a lot of Fe and actively tries to relate and interact with people around him, but his autism causes communication and theory of mind issues. I also was acquainted with someone in an Aspergers' group who was possibly an FeNi (definitely an Fe-lead).
I would say autism and CT are separate, one has nothing to do with the other. There are certain traits in certain types that may resemble autism. For instance, almost all autistic people have communication issues and relating. The clinic was equally split among extroverted and introverted autistic clients, but the introverted seemed to have even more trouble communicating and relating, but this is due to the fact that aside from autism they have introversion too. So introversion may resemble autism, but it is not part of autism nor are introverts more likely to become autistic.
In the clinic, I noticed all types. I see Fi-dom, Ti-dom, Se-dom, etc types. It is interesting to see how autism interacts with typology to create unique traits though.
Yes, thank you leon for sharing that. My son and my friend's son are very much a like, but I know that my nephew was quite different in the way he interacted and reacted. Unfortunately, I haven't seen him in over 3 years, so not much chance of typing him anytime soon. Glad you posted.
leon: Thanks for sharing your experience, that was interesting to hear! I believe it is very much the case that people with autism/high functioning autism/Asperger's are not alike in personality, as personality does not equal either autism or cognitive type. What I find interesting with regard to CT is that autistic disorders have neurobiological differences also in the cortex area, where cognitive functions are "placed". So it is not surprising that malfunctioning or anatomical difference of a certain area could in principle result in processing and function hierarchy similar to some cognitive types (e.g. high Fi or Te). At the same time, for genetic and/or environmental reasons, autistic people can in principle have preference for certain functions and brain area use. So one could have a preference for let's say SiFe that would also show in the brain scan as a similarity to other SiFe's, but due to certain brain development issues, e.g. with regard to mirror neuron areas (T5 and F7), she can have trouble "executing" those preferences. Brain scan could then resemble mostly that of SiFe but lack some of the usual high activity areas of SiFe's, or even have those high activity areas but for some reason not be able to act in way that usually overlaps that kind of cortex activity (e.g. adapt one's behavior according to social expectations of that cultural context). Interesting question is, how that would show in external expression, i.e. how would we read the functions in that case: would she show high Fe or not
This is not a question of causality, though. Having a certain CT does not cause or equal ASD and vice versa. Theoretically speaking they can, at some amount, look similar, and it's intriguing to think how exactly people with ASD would be read in CT.
This is all speculation, but I'm very interested in these issues right now for very personal reasons. As far as I know, there is no research on the relations of the Jungian functions and ASD (if there is, PLEASE inform me).
Maybe I'll try to find people who have a diagnosed Asperger's/HFA and see how their functions look like in CT. Nothing scientific or conclusive, but interesting all the same.