I am Authenticity! Happy to be here, want to learn a lot. Recently got typed as FeSi in the CT vultology system, and here trying to understand Jung and vultology better so I can use it in my own life!
I have some confusions about SI. I am typical bad at the tasks people "assign" to Si users in Mbti, so had assumed it must be poorly developed in me. Ready to learn it afresh. I welcome all your input!
Best, Authenticity
“If every tiny flower wanted to be a rose, spring would lose its loveliness.”
Yes, I can understand the disconnect you may have toward those mbti definitions. Rest assure, they don't mean anything of the sort in CT. Cognitive Type is a completely different system from MBTI, and all the definitions are different. I'd like to start with some of the first differences:
Q: How are sensor types defined?
In CT, there are actually no real "S" types, nor any definition for that category. This is because identification is done through function pairings; by the combined attributes of both abstract and concrete perception -- or logical and ethical judgment.
And all types within a quadrant have a lot in common with each other. The supposed dominance of one function over another plays a much less prominent role in CT. And funny enough, in CT the SiFe (ISFJ) is actually most similar to the NeTi (ENTP) when Ne is well nurtured in the psyche. The FeSi (ESFJ) is actually most similar, cognitively, to the TiNe (INTP). This shows how little correlation there is between CT and the four-letter-code of MBTI.
Q: What if I'm bad at task-oriented stuff?
In CT, Si actually has nothing to do with task-orientation (nor does Se). It's actually (when combined with Ne, as it always is) even prone to heavier scatteredness than many types.
Most Ne/Si and Fe/Ti users I've known have struggled with worldly tasks in some form or another. This is because of all functions, logistics are probably handled best by Te, and alpha types have Fe rather than Te. But on top of this, their use of Ne/Si causes a greater level of indecisiveness, real-time revisions, and lack of attention to detail.
Q: What about "S" and detail orientation?
In CT, rather than assigning detail-orientation to "S", it's more a function of a couple different things. Ji processes are detailed (or "nitpicky") in their approach to things, but Se is the function that has a natural level of attune-ness to specific details. Types with Si-Ne, no matter if Si is above Ne in priority, always perceive the outside world using Ne. So there's always a level of divorce from the tactile.
Q: What does Si mean for the FeSi?
For the FeSi, their primary oscillation (Fe+Ti) plays the biggest role in their psyche, with Si and Ne mainly adding support. In general they will be lead by a conviction to both accurately quantify (Ti) and implement the most ethically sound positions (Fe) as they relate to interpersonal dynamics. As they go through life they will keep a record of what methods worked and use that (Si) as a starting point for each interaction, then adjust it in real-time (Ne) based on what the situation requires ethically and personally. They will be rather democratic/diplomatic in their implementation, due to their more open-ended perspective - as compared to the FeNi - that causes a fair deal of ethics to be relativized.
But the goal of the FeSi is not truly endless speculation and revision. They do ultimately strive for a stability in perspective. They use speculation to that aim when necessary, but would prefer to have a rightly defined ethical code; one that doesn't need to change (Si) because it's gotten to the needed place and accuracy (Si+Ti).
Post by ayoungspirit on Apr 7, 2016 16:23:54 GMT -5
Oh, yes, welcome ! We sure could use some Authenticity around here
I hope our modest community will help you deepen your knowledge of psychology. Erifrail already wrote a great primer to the Si-Ne pairing, so I will not hold forth on it here, except to say that in CT, prevalent Si types surely have an interesting relation to "memory", compared to what can be said of "SJ" types in MBTI. They often are sensitive toward some sort of "trivia", but of a more personal nature, especially when combined with Fe-Ti. I know a SiFe who will insist he has "no memory", especially for names and numbers, although he seems to be very protective toward what we might call "selective memory". In the end, type is only a frame for personality, and regularly learning afresh is certainly a most reasonable attitude.
Feel free to direct our feedback toward the topics of your interest. See you around !
Last Edit: Apr 7, 2016 16:39:35 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Post by ayoungspirit on Apr 8, 2016 3:15:09 GMT -5
OK, that was a lot! All anecdotes too.
Funnily enough, CT has a term for something like this which goes as "Si Rambling"
So, lots about the FeSi feels true but then some feels off, like the thing about adopting public opinion/beliefs.
Like the relation between Si and "memory", the relation between Fe and "sociability" or "social beliefs" is definitely not straightforward. I do not have much time to elaborate at the moment, but it will perhaps be illustrative to say that someone like Steve Jobs is a strong candidate for being a Fe-lead, despite or perhaps because of his reputation as an insufferable and eccentric individual. Yet, this is only a variation among many, and there can be shyness, awkwardness, as well as any other trait from the human experience. As a prevalent Fe-user myself, I have been described as a lot of things from charming to simply strange, depending on the occasion.
Last Edit: Apr 8, 2016 3:15:26 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Not at all, you are actually exceptionally open-minded. Many people wouldn't dig this deeply and be this receptive.
(And I'm glad you found that chapter!)
I totally know what you mean about that prejudice. I'm quite upset at what mbti has done to promote this prejudice, and at such a mass scale. It riles up my own ethical conviction.
I sometimes find that in mbti circles there's a halfhearted attempt to be democratic and fair to these "sensor" types, and to say "we're all equal, just different" but it comes off as patronizing. It's a false consolation of equality they give to people who are quite directly defined as inferior in aptitude.
What they don't know is that these sensors don't need any pity or consolation, because they truly are better at just about anything the "N"s do, about half the time. In CT, we actually confirm this by seeing brilliant scientists that are SeFi, philosophers that are SiFe, and engineers that are TeSi. It's not just a platitude to say that any type can be/do anything; it's a reality.
I would almost be inclined to feel pity for the "N" types, because their level of disconnect with the physical world causes many personal illusions to emerge, until they balance their functions. The NF/NT communities cease to be real type groupings, and become hubs for people with beliefs of specialness/rarity and who bask in the identity this gives them --- divorced from the reality of their rather more average composition.
Individuation and IN, NF, NT
In any walk of life, the individuating person will think to him or herself "they don't understand me; my thoughts are beyond their grasp" or "my true talents are unappreciated and obscured by this society". This very human feeling and need is at the center of what the mbti targets/addresses, as seen in books titled "Please Understand Me".
It is, in a way, a comfort zone for those who have (many times, legitimately) been damaged by misunderstandings in family, society and culture. But this need is met by these books by quantifying to the reader "these (S types) are those responsible for your heartache" you are one of those with higher faculties, that are underappreciated. It's a factual thing you just weren't aware of. Suddenly there's an explanation to their troubles. Suddenly it's known, understood, and contrasted against. "I've struggled so much because all those SJs never care about my inner feelings, and all they want is for me to work"
The heart becomes invested in that definition (NF, NT, INxx) because it's the very safety-net of identity that has given them solace in an otherwise misunderstanding world of people. This is a cry and lamentation of our society as a whole.
I certainly don't wish to ignore the troubles that are causing this response in people, but it's unfair to create a scapegoat this way --- because in reality there is no human category (the imagined "SJ" or "SP") that is so fundamentally lacking in aspects of creativity and brilliance. It's in large part a matter of nurture and poor development that makes people ascribe to rote ideas or simplistic philosophies.
But I think that, if type can truly be quantified accurately, then this societal cry for understanding can be addressed even better, more profoundly, by giving people the ability to know their spouse or child's type early on --- and have that a science, which can tell them that their child has so-and-so needs in education and lifestyle.
Post by ayoungspirit on Apr 8, 2016 16:41:01 GMT -5
I sometimes find that in mbti circles there's a halfhearted attempt to be democratic and fair to these "sensor" types, and to say "we're all equal, just different" but it comes off as patronizing. It's a false consolation of equality they give to people who are quite directly defined as inferior in aptitude.
What they don't know is that these sensors don't need any pity or consolation, because they truly are better at just about anything the "N"s do, about half the time. In CT, we actually confirm this by seeing brilliant scientists that are SeFi, philosophers that are SiFe, and engineers that are TeSi. It's not just a platitude to say that any type can be/do anything; it's a reality.
In truth, I find that human culture in general is not very fair toward personality. There is a primeval relationship between knowledge and power which often means that some will gain or lose moral value instead of being considered for what they are. Trials will stand to assess worth from a set of contrived goals, with sometimes self-defeating consequences. However, I would be inclined to believe this can be frame anew, and CT could be quite a balanced tool in this respect. An honest criteria which could point toward the limitations of "philosophers" and the perspective of anyone, really.
Last Edit: Apr 8, 2016 16:41:58 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
Yeah, I know what you mean. And I'm supposed to be a cold and calculated T type. -- but I think these are very human ideas, not to be excluded from any person's capacity to entertain. (I would hope not! ...otherwise that means a great deal of the human race can't think very ethically)
My sister is actually an FeSi that has a master's degree in Social Work, and she works as a counselor at an elementary school. Her and I often have chats about society and what could be changed. She sees a lot of things wrong with education systems. I wish I had a video of her (I'll ask). She reminds me of you.
I know it must be disorienting. I just want you to know that I/we don't mean to put any of those restricted definitions on you, which you've read elsewhere online. The CT model allows (or, rather, just acknowledges that) everyone has all those "NF" and "NT" traits. It's... imo, a much less bleak view of humanity. Because it also means that we can potentially persuade anyone to grasp any abstract or idealistic ideas, and development is the primary obstacle in the way of someone's level of intelligence.
There are no types that are doomed to be little more than human laundry machines or mindless workers at a corporation. I think we really need to elevate the standard of value within the typology community. There are a lot of Se>Ni and Si>Ne types online which can't resonate with any of the 'SP' and 'SJ' profiles; and rightly, they shouldn't -- because they don't describe them.
Yes... I think you're describing the Ne-Si experience as I've seen it. As opposed to the Ni-Se pairing, which extrapolates from other assumptions to fill in some gaps in a really new situation, an Ne-Si type is completely at a loss in a new environment. Si gets a "does not compute" message because no prior data is stored about this specific scenario (Si), while Ni would at least bring to mind a general framework, with some predictable things like:
- Well, all transportation system's gotta have [this] and [that]. - There's gotta be a fee, which means there's gotta be a booth I need to find. *starts looking* - And there's probably gonna be a departure voice call, so I can just shut my eyes here on the bench until I hear my call.
They'll (generally) feel their way around things a tad better, and panic a bit less. The direct connection they have to Se means they'll get the jist a little bit faster, or at least with less of a roundabout process (Ne).
The bad thing about the Si-Ne pairing is that, when zero prior knowledge exists about a topic, the only thing that is available to give some perspective is an unanchored Ne. So the mind will start to use raw Ne to speculate many different possibilities without a defined perimeter around the topic, and most of those ideas will be off-base.
Si is where comfort develops gradually, as information starts coming in with experience. Think of Si as a sandbox, or a cozy library that acts as the springboard from where Ne can generate ideas. Si is the security of a worldview that can be returned to, even though the energetics of Si-Ne types will always get a bigger thrill from using Ne.
Now, some Ne-lead people (NeTi or NeFi) might just be more fully at home in a completely new situation, but an Si>Ne type will first want the situation to be familiar enough to allow for more modest creative expression. So they may be shy in new situations, then silly and spontaneous later on.
Mmhm. "Introversion" as it has been used for the past several decades, isn't the same as what CT calls proactive. Having Fe as the primary process just speaks to your biggest impetus being the understanding of ethical dynamics between people, and the attempt to move those dynamics into an ideal arrangement using emotional economy. The fact that the subject matter (human dynamics) is outward-focused is what mainly defines this difference in orientation.
But as you'll read in the book, just about every profile has more "introverted" and "extroverted" shades. And things like confidence/insecurity play a greater role here than the direction that a person's mental energy flows.
All of this really boils down to one thing: CT is not a personality model. What MBTI ends up describing is personality (i.e. a person's constructed identity, habits, avoidance mechanisms, nurture and how that causes a certain lifepath trajectory to form). CT is a cognitive model, which means it deals with how thoughts are processed.
The thought process of an FeSi will always begin with Fe-Ti and use Ne-Si for support... and that's the main definition of the type. The definition of a type is not dependent on what a person does or doesn't do in their day to day life or habits. It's not a behavioral model in that sense.