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This is thread #2 of Development levels! (followup to thread #1 for context) In this one we review the NeFi type in higher detail. As with the TeSi thread, this is an exhaustive account of the NeFi, primarily aimed for the vultology team and the upcoming practitioner program (but here opened up to the forum). Special thanks to our contributors!
I'm very thankful to all the NeFi volunteers we've had that have made this thread possible! SC, Reve, Red, Anthony, Space Man, Skua Grey, and so many others..! I truly appreciate your contributions to this project and doing so is helping fully define and quantify this phenomenon we all wish to unravel. Without your participation, essential gaps would be missing but this allows for a very steady and unbroken transition between all the development levels of the NeFi.
( ^ a pinch more Te than the others, but not enough to be conscious)
Compilation (watch full-screen)
After reviewing the NeFi samples as a whole, I was mostly unsurprised to find this is the baseline for NeFi l--- and is by far the most common vultology. Still I found it to be a little less "perky" than I envisioned, as I originally felt Calypso and Skua Grey could have conscious Fi. But it turns out this rather passive, flow-y, ongoing energy represents the NeFi l--- baseline. As mentioned with the TeSi thread, 1 function conscious generally doesn't have the *most* energy. They are not necessarily "jumpy" or hyped, but one gets the sense that their body is in perpetual motion. This is very different from the real ll-- which we'll touch on below.
Whimsical & Curious
Lost in thought, tangent-chasing
Usually a bit "bubbly" and giggly/giddy
Child-like themes (i.e. children books, shows, voice-acting, drawings)
Prone to laughter and comedy
Kate Micucci, Charlene Yi and Kristen Schaal embody the comedian aspects of this development in their careers, but all of them have a very comedic energy. Being seelie, they are usually among the most lighthearted people and there is something eternally youthful about them which often brings a contagious enthusiasm and invitation into 'play'. To sound a bit poetic for a moment, they're like a butterfly which flutters about; enticing participation. They appear to be constantly living or acting out a parody; treating life as a sort of (un)staged 'scenario' in witty and amusing ways. It become a blur to try and define when they 'are in character' or out of character.
They have a sing-song voice. Skua Grey's "hums" and "yupyups" are especially plucky. There is something dreamlike about them as their attention is never really connected to the physical but is lost chasing memes, associations or ideas. This disconnect from reality is what gives them 'flight'. Something curious to note is that these standard development NeFi's tend to type as "INFP" in the MBTI. I originally felt that it would take an ll-- development for that to happen but apparently nearly all Ne-leads type as introverted! This is of course generally irrelevant to CT since we have very different non-social (and more metabolic) definitions of I/E and all else, but it's worth noting that "standard" NeFi will type as INFP... even when Fi is not fully conscious as with Calypso and many others that have come and gone.
As you can see with Amy Lee here, especially, she doesn't have the sprite-like voice that others like Calypso and Charlene have. But more than that, I think a proper definition of the vultology of seelie/unseelie is in order:
A vulnerability in the voice (airy) A softer edge/tone to the body May include wounded expression
A subtle (or strong) barrier between the Fi and the exterior A snappier body posture, and more matter-of-fact voice May include sarcasm, snark, etc
What unseelie is not:
Unseelie doesn't necessarily mean ill-meaning. A lot of unseelie people are very ethically motivated, not harm-oriented, but they are also not unguarded. They're 'defending' themselves against the world rather than retaining an open channel to it. You could consider unseeliness an essential "closure" of the heart valve between the Fi user and the other people. Seelie Fi users have an open channel between their heart and the world, which can either cause an effeminate delicacy or forlorn energy to emanate. Inversely, a defended heart (unseelie) will hold their own, so you won't sense delicate 'radiation' of Fi energy. They might be good-willed, and be very clever/witty, but they keep the door shut and their inner vessel guarded.
Amy Lee's unseeliness can also be registered in her dark songs, especially from before. And Britney Spears also has a sassiness to her songs, and a standoffish demeanor that speaks to the self-protection of unseelie Fi. But it's also worth noting that NeFi's are different from other Fi/Te users in that their dominant Ne adds a natural optimism and levity. Thus the baseline for unseelie is different in NeFi's and they may still seem relatively agreeable and nice even when unseelie, due to that levity. But besides that, their vultology is just like that of those above.
Now the male baseline is a little different from the women's baseline. This is NeFi l--- male even without conscious Te. You'll notice that some snippiness is still present. We originally had SC as NeFi-Te (or l-l-) but running through all the NeFi samples has really illuminated me to what conscious Te really looks like in an NeFi male and these two samples are far below the amount of rigidity they display.
As we discussed about NeFi's above, the analogous seems to be NeFi males identifying as ENTP or INTP even in this normal development. The fully conscious presence of Te is not necessary for the affiliation with "T" to develop in NeFi males. However, they may also resonate with the F attitude in some cases. I suspect this is an influence of male/female biology and innate psychology - and how it moves the line across the spectrum in things like interest in things (T) vs people (F).
NeFi l--- Unseelie Male / The Ambiverted Science Nerd
These two have very striking vultologies; twin shades for sure. I was very excited to see how much they parallel. So again like the above, I originally though both of these were l-l- but that was when I had not considered what it would look like to have an NeFi l--- + Unseelie. Previously unseelie energy was directly being correlated with strong/high-Te, while now the two variables have been shown to vary independently. Thus it had to be possible for NeFi l--- to be unseelie, but any unseelie signals were immediately being interpreted as signs of fully conscious Te previously. Now, with this new revision we see a far more consistent set of parallels emerge.
But just to compare, here is a comparison against the real NeFi l-l- Unseelie Male vultology:
As you can see, ...it differs from Marc and Matt. Marc/Matt have a similar sort of jittery snippiness, but unlike Robert/Tim here, there is no "structure" to their gestures. Marc/Matt also tend to recede back into fluidity far more often, while Robert/Tim are "always on" and have the avalanching effect of a conscious Ne+Te duality.
I realize I'm skipping ahead here, but I felt I needed to in order to showcase the difference. And to set the baseline properly. This also better fits with psychology. l-l- Tim Urban is an entrepreneur. He studied government in college, and started a business before moving onto other things. Robert Llewellyn is not only a comedian (Ne) but is also a presenter of the engineering (Te) gameshow Scrapheap Challenge. He's considered a bit of an expert in emerging transportation and renewable energy technology.
Here we see in both Tim and Robert themes of Te Engineering/Science/Technology, as well as Business/Law/Government. As we discussed recently, autonomous manifestation of the function is part of the criteria for consciousness and the latter two express that manifestation more completely.
^ Ji Momentum Halting ...leading into Pe Bubbling Momentum + Te Snippiness
Notice how contrasted these two modalities are. He goes from almost being completely stiff, to suddenly ramping up his energy to pure Pe-lead levels. What this tells me is that he is modulating one or the other. But we know he is modulating Ji because a Ji-lead never goes so easily back into bubbling momentum like that. Instead, what we're seeing is a Pe-lead that.... momentarily halted to revise their Ji... and then release the internal evaluation and resumes their natural composure. And again here:
^ Ji Momentum Halting ...leading into Pe Bubbling Momentum + Te Snippiness
The same thing happens with Sean. We see him spend a great deal of time (10+ seconds) in an almost fully still/silent state, before suddenly kicking it into high gear and going into a very animated bubbly energy. This happens multiple times for Geoff and Sean in their videos. I am reminded of what Ayoungspirit said recently that when a function is used at a conscious level it's almost as if they "can" emulate the vultology of that function nearly how it would be as dominant. Indeed, for these split moments Geoff and Sean could pass as Ji-leads. But taken as a whole, they're definitely Pe-leads. Sean can be seen bobbling like a pendulum, which is a level of energy that doesn't ever appear in a Ji-lead. We can see this also in a few female samples:
All three of these samples show moments of heightened buoyancy, but also moments of nearly full momentum clamping. Janis in particular has moments of oscillation between Pe perk-ups and full momentum halts.
I've also noticed this thing with NeFi that they do with their hands, where they shift them side-to-side offhandedly like so:
SC does it a lot too. This is a tell-tale sign of P-lead, which demonstrates that the body is overall still loose, lacking a "structure", even though it recedes very heavily. So if I had to summarize it, I'd say ll-- consists of:
Natively Buoyant Energy which is still expressed easily with excitation, but which...
Sometimes gets clamped into near complete halts....
But the body never develops a rigid center scaffold from which it operates, causing their movements to "flail about" whenever they do gesture.
Head Tilts and Sways still abound, whenever clamping isn't happening.
This finally feels right, and answers a lot of previous questions. All of these samples ^ were difficult to type for the same reason. There was a weird intermixing of Ji within a Pe-lead vultology, but this explanation seems consistent with what we would expect. And I think we were giving a lot of NeFi a "conscious Fi" designation before, but as with all these developments, conscious Fi actually means something very specific.
Unlike the NeFi l--- females who drift/flow like a river, these samples have a distinctly heightened "spunk" to them. Their vultology is more like a turbulent, rocky river. There are far more perk-ups present and there's an accelerated energy coming from the activity of Ne+Te. But unlike the Te>Ne samples who retain a definite structure containing their Ne, here the energy is still embedded within their enthusiastic but altogether spontaneous/loose/fluid posture. Their body bounces about in a rather unplanned manner.
Established careers & products
Agreeable & Joyous
As with the other seelies, Mo O'Hara shares the child energy we see in Kate Micucci and Kristen Schaal, having also a focus on children's books/plushies/products. They are affable, receptive and agreeable. Lindsey Stirling and Chloe Agnew share musical proclivities, with Stirling having an eclectic mixture of interests she weaves together. All of them have artistic careers. Stirling shares some of those 'fairy' motifs in how she dresses and presents her brand.
NeFi l-l- Unseelie Female / The Snarky Media Generator
I must apologize for this bit... All four of the above were titled under TeSi-Ne until I reviewed and really discovered what the TeSi l-l- looks like. And they are distinctly different from them. Actually, originally these samples were under NeFi before they were switched to TeSi... so now they're being switched back. I realize now I was overextending the scope of the TeSi vultology.
Looking at the compilation video makes it especially clear. All of them have an abundance of casual hand signals, sassy head tilts, fluid body, and a general lack of "Je" vertical structure. The body is not a regimented "whole", but is instead a drifting, scattered conglomerate of energy. There's an unfinished, reviser energy to everything they do.
Jesting / Bantering
Articulate (but random!) media generators
Comedic & Talkative
Some science-y interests
All four of them are prolific media generators. All of them do youtube videos on a very random assortment of topics. All of them incorporate a crass Te humor into their delivery as well. There seems to be a trend for Te+Ne overall to be among the most productive of types in terms of output, mixed also with a fair dose of humor. What threw me off is the sheer amount of bluntness they're capable of. They can appear quite brash and I felt that was Te-lead... but now I realized that Te-leads are actually not randomly brash in that way.
Usually, Te-leads (l---) have a point they're getting across and they're argumentative for the sake of their point. Being J-leads, there is structure, meaning and intention to their display of Te. Inversely, these four use unseelie Te almost recreationally. I see SeFi l-l- do the same thing with their Te. Making the TeSi thread first really illuminated me to this fact. Actual TeSi's are more 'adult' about how they wield Te. Inversely, NeFi with Te are more 'bratty' with their Te -- for lack of a better word. And this is the child archetype in negative form.. I believe.
Ne>Te creates an effect where Te's humor/bluntness is subjugated to Ne's fun-seeking agenda.
Here we see the NeFi l-l- male with seelie energy, which is generally hard to find. Both of these show hosts are affable, jovial, comedic, witty, and "out-there" in their own way. Craig Ferguson is known for his giddy giggles, which you can find compilations of online. It's quite great to see!
But I'd like to focus more attention to the unseelie males:
The NeFi l-l- males appear to have more mechanical interests. They're very gadget oriented, often into science, technology, futuristic topics, etc. Jon Rettinger is founder of TechBuffalo which has as it's core statement "TechnoBuffalo has one focus: To help you get the most out of your tech lifestyle. At its core, TechnoBuffalo is about experiencing technology." I've discussed previously how Robert Llewellyn is an electric car enthusiast and general green energy fan. Tim Urban also has a very science-y blog called WaitButWhy where lately he's shifted his focus to more intensely STEM topics. For example he has very long posts on NeuralLink, the Fermi Paradox, SpaceX, etc.
Now I call these "tech enthusiast" because they appear to be more enthusiastic about tech topics, than they are actively bringing them about. Also, an "enthusiast" is also another word for an "early adopter" which is definitely the case. I have an NeFi l-l- friend in real life and his house is littered with "the latest" this-and-that, which he ends up tucking away in some corner. Ideas that are on-the-fringe and of some sort of mechanical nature are like candy to them. Their Je also gives them some capacity to create revenue, and their revenue goes directly into their multiple hobbies. This is also the Scattered Entrepreneur.
Now here we see Craig Ferguson again, having modulated down. We saw him above in his l-l- modality which is quite different than how he looks here. We see in him far more Pi inertia and a leveled tempo to his energy. It's not quite like the l--- types because he's got an inordinate amount of swaying and viscosity. His eyes are not scattered and he has less reviser "doubt" to his demeanor. He's not hesitant or glitchy like a reviser typically would be. Additionally, it's not like the ll-- types because his introversion doesn't stem from rigidity, but from fluidity.
This may seem strange at first but deep down Ferguson actually has a strong historical interest and a narrative proclivity. Most recently he's put on a new show called:
Craig is also very mellow in his personal life, despite his energy when he's "on." Likewise Robin Williams appears to have been polarized to l--l. This was curious to see but I confirmed it with a survey of multiple interviews. He could get into a really Ne mode, but he was also legendary for his inexhaustible and real-time recall and synthesis of memes. I suspect his level of Pi recall, fused with Ne realtime parodies, was a contribution to this effect. His energy is toned down but not in the way of the ll-- Fi types. Instead it is viscous like Ferguson.
We see in the interview above that Robin Williams periodically switches into parodies (0:47+), so we see this curious vultological mixture of Pi Inertia.... switching into perky Ne parodies.
I don't have enough NeFi l--l samples to fill this section so the comparison above is againg with Ferguson. Josh Groban is unseelie, which gives him a bit more 'snap' to his gestures and he generally has some more Te expression but again it's not at the level of consciousness we see in the l-l- types. Instead his energy level is more comparable to the l--- Unseelie males (Marc/Matt) if we instead take the doubtful/reviser energy and trade it off for an inertial and calm energy.
The NeFi l--l seems unhurried in their expressions, and also not scattered. Their movements don't come from uncoordinated energy spikes that flail about in any direction. Instead each head nod and eye-gaze is more methodical and directed somewhere with a bit more intent (conductor). This is very unusual for an NeFi since NeFi vultology is typically the epitome of multi-directed, scattered energy.
It's subtle at first but the way we can tell it's still NeFi and not SiTe is by the animation and vibrancy that still remains underneath, despite the more mellow tempo compare to other NeFi. Although they're not as perky as other developments, we still see a distinct "amused" and intrigued sparkle of Ne as the undercurrent. Quantitatively this shows up in a quickness of the body to respond and react, even if the reaction is a slow and paced Pi movement.
"quick and amused" Pi movements... is a good way to think about it. Here are a few GIFs showing this signal:
^ Here things start to get quite interesting. In Linda Liukas we see a very distinctly Ne-lead perky and enthusiastic vultology, but we also see moments of clearly delicate and meticulous hand gestures (1:30, 1:55). Not only that, we also see plenty of Je gesticulations and what appears to be an actual J "structure." Unlike the NeFi l-l-, she appears to have a firmness to her posture and almost appears to be J-lead. She also delivers her points with conviction and earnestness/resolution rather than casualness. Meghan Telpner #2 (this is when she's older) also displays this more rigid substructure.
What I believe we're seeing here is P(JJ) ...or two conscious J functions underneath a Pe lead function. It's the exact inverse of what we saw with the TeSi lll-. While the TeSi lll- is J(PP)... here it's almost as if there's a polarized J-lead (l--l) embedded within a Pe-lead structure. Like the ll-- development NeFi, there is poise and pauses. But like the l-l- there is energy and amplitude. But yet, like the l---, there is still soft swaying, buoyancy and head tilts.
All of this (Ne+Fi+Te) is also reflected in their psychology. Meghan Telpner cares very much about health, self-care and happiness/wellbeing. She has a food/diet program and also a lot of advice videos about having confidence and finding meaning in life by doing what you love. Linda Liukas is a coder/programmer (Te) but one who is also advocating to bring more women (especially young girls) into coding, to educate a larger population about the beauty and "poetry" of code... and to make it a force for good in the world. Here again we see Fi motifs intermixed with Te motifs. And Zephyr is a heartfelt, liberal politician of a similar shade to Elizabeth Warren that has the agency of Te but also the care and agreeableness of a seelie Fi.
Unlike the NeFi l-l- seelie females, who have creative interests that are more entertainment-oriented, the NeFi lll- females have more Fi activism embedded into their Ne+Te. Linda Liukas is a cartoonist/childrens-book-writer like other NeFi's, but she syncs that with her programmer interests as well as her child-education interests to create books that inspire a love for code and self-empowerment. These three women are very business-minded, but in quite a soft and seelie way.
In order to keep the thread lighter, I didn't add all the examples of each category (just a max of 4 per each) but here is a more full list of all the NeFi's and their development levels: (preview of the new database)
Thank you all again for adding your vids to the database! And for helping expand this project to this greater level.
Thank you for this^. Good job! I am especially glad about the seelie/unseelie definition. I have something I wrote last year that will share with you in private that expresses exactly this struggle between openness/closing in precisely these terms! (an outward channel in the heart, lol!)
“If every tiny flower wanted to be a rose, spring would lose its loveliness.”