Admin note: This was originally posted in this thread Is it just me or are there patterns in terms of phenotype? For example, the FeNi males (generally) have a large-jawed, wide-headed, muscular (I would presume this is Fe), alpha-male look to them. The TeNi males have a strict look to them, in part given by the functions, in part by a thin bony-ness and a long, somewhat hooked, nose.
Post by peppergirl on Mar 22, 2014 17:19:09 GMT -5
There is something else I noticed is the total absence of Black Deltas, but they seem very numerous amongst the Beta quadra, there is something similar with East Asian people but I'm less sure for them. On the other hand, white people are more numerous within the Delta quad. I don't want to sound racist or anything but I've been noticing this trend for awhile now and found it very intriguing and wanted to hear your thoughts about it, I hope it won't look too polemical. Among celebrities or in my surroundings, I just can't find one black Delta, as if this quad was racist lol Seriously, I really want to meet one do you think there is an ethnic distribution of quadra/types?
Again, there is no racism involved in it at all, it's really an objective observation that has been bugging me for awhile.
Post by peppergirl on Mar 22, 2014 17:44:28 GMT -5
B-B? you mean Black Beta? It's funny but I think the stereotype of Black people being impulsive/mystical and warm schmoozers corresponds to the textbook description of the Beta quadra. And the image of the individualistic nerdy geek is more associated with White people, although there are different ways to be a nerd (*cough* NiTe Zuckerberg *cough*), it tends to carry the Delta vibe (giraffe with glasses).
Post by TheLogicFan on Mar 22, 2014 18:02:36 GMT -5
Linus Yes, I have noticed these things from the start. We have to be careful though, that we don't overgeneralize it. For all we know it's possible that some of the features are more variable than what the current sample suggests. I have seen a number of FeNi examples that didn't have the wide-face for example. Colin Morgan, who is also in the FeNi group, is a good example of this. He is clearly a FeNi in my opinion, but his face is much narrower than most FeNi and he isn’t especially muscular. Another thing we have to keep in mind is that most of the current samples are successful celebrities of some kind. As such they are all a bit too good looking to represent all the possible variations in the general population. But it's still very exciting to see all of these patterns clearly like this.
peppergirl, I think it’s just harder to find good examples of Asians and Black people in general (they have less exposure). As such, I don’t think we can really conclude much of anything about differences in type distribution. I prefer to not speculate too much about these things.
Post by peppergirl on Mar 22, 2014 18:40:35 GMT -5
TheLogicFan I know they have less exposure but given that Delta people tend to be more common, I find strange there are no Black ones and we have read quite a few of them, enough to see a trend (Beta>Delta). I agree for the Asian ethnicity, not enough data to know. I didn't want to make people uncomfortable but if others noticed it.
Last Edit: Mar 22, 2014 18:41:07 GMT -5 by peppergirl
TheLogicFan, agreed. That's why I said '(generally)'. I found it very intriguing looking through the pictures, and it's a thought I had a while back, so I thought I should mention it.
peppergirl, one more thing. It's not really racist. Whenever you select two groups on any criteria (in this case, pigment), you will probably find differences. It's only racist if you generalize it to the detriment of one group, which is not what you did (unless you're a Delta-supremacist ). In any case, I find the distinction between the "races" quite flimsy and arbitrary. Firstly, there is quite a bit of variation within any "race", and subsets of these "races" may look more like subsets of other "races" than of their own. (For this reason, I find it hypocritical to call the 19th and 20th century anthropology pseudo-scientific (I'm talking about this kind of stuff: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_race), while allowing "race" studies between dermal types.) Secondly, if you go on any white "nationalist" website, you'll notice debates about what constitutes "whiteness". Some will only admit it to Northern Europeans, some to all Europeans, some to areas outside of Europe; it's a mess really. The reason is that it's arbitrary: a broad classification with colonialist intentions (for example, notice how you said "the Asian ethnicity", though there is no such thing).
Post by peppergirl on Mar 22, 2014 19:26:39 GMT -5
Linus I perfectly understand what you mean. The reason I avoided the term "race" is because of how loaded with negative background it is (historically speaking and now in the collective unconscious of Western people), hence the vague and unscientific term "ethnicity" I used. Race is indeed not a scientific term but I think it doesn't just refer to pigmentation but phenotype in general. Furthermore, like you said there are many subvariations of "races" in the world, especially in the parts of the wolrd where mixing happened a lot (the Americas in particular and former colonies). I do believe there are 3 broad major "races" (White, Black, "Asian") and inside them variations and mixing with other races on the margins. I won't talk further about it since it was not really the original topic and I know how it's a subversive topic. Some people may badly interpret what I say and I don't want that. I find just a pity that stating differences (and yes "racial" ones) is equated with necessarely looking for a hierarchy.
PS: Yes I'm a closet Delta supremacist but hushhh
Last Edit: Mar 22, 2014 19:29:36 GMT -5 by peppergirl
You guys are flirting with some pretty stinking theories here! What strikes me, is that when you make the constatation of this fact : "no black people among Delta types", you never question the theory. It's like CT cannot be invalid, the reason has to be somewhere else : the "beta black" versus the "delta white", "Black people being impulsive/mystical and warm schmoozers" VS "the individualistic nerdy geek more associated with White people". You have to be really blinded by your belief in CT to be so dogmatic and to indulge into such stinking generalizations! Because you know what? A stereotype doesn't need to be negative to be harmful! After all, when we say that Black people are better than White people at running, dancing and playing jazz music, that they are always nice, happy and smiling, isn't it flattering?
It's like when I read forumers say that "Asian people are hard to type", or even when we have a barein and endless conversation about someone's type without reaching consensus : is it so hard to consider the possibility that maybe CT is imperfect? That some people simply don't fit the frame precisely because this frame is possibly invalid (or at least incomplete)?
You're saying that it's hypocritical to ignore differences between "races". So OK, the fact is that different people in the world have different phenotypes. Now I'd be curious to hear you explain how these physical differences impact their intellectual and emotionnal abilities? Their cognitive processes? You actually remind me of all those phrenology and racist theories of the XIX century and it's not the first time I read such borderlines things on this forum "Ti users have big forehead", "Te users have long nose", "Fe users are muscled" etc. Even the Fi/Fe smiles signals and the different scowls sound borderline to me.
I know your intention is not to make moral judgments on people's appearence, but the methodology is exactly the same : using people's physical features (and not just their interaction style or eyes movements) to speculate on their mental abilities, cognitive process or whatever you call them. To me, that's really one of the big weaknesses of this theory, and you are just making it worst on this thread. And please, don't tell me I just misunderstood your point. You're playing with fire and you know it.
Last Edit: Mar 23, 2014 0:02:14 GMT -5 by Shivaree
@shivaree You totally misinterpreted what I said. I will post an answer later because I don't have much time right now.
Édit: oops, I read your last paragraph, but I still say it because I don't like being imposed hidden motivations, especially that I stated several times that I don't think there are hierarchies or anything!!! It was an obsvervation with no inferences about any possible innate differences in reality. Furthermore when I talk about stereotypes, it's obviously not my personal thoughts. I NEVER said that Black or White people are such and such, please read lme again! Second, I stay within the assumption that CT is right, otherwise I would certainly not waste my time here. I know it's just a theory right now and that that it can be invalid eventually. I would understand your answer if I talked about real differences in intelligence, abilities etc, but I think my post was very reasonable and careful, plus I asked other people what they think and if they noticed it. You don't have to take this moralizing and hysterical tone. This was REALLY unnrcessary.
I won't continue further because I know we won't agree and hope readers are intelligent enough to know that I'm not a "race" supremacist or anything. I'd be repeating myself and you too. I thought people here were open-minded and curious enough to talk about this but apparently I'm wrong.
Last Edit: Mar 23, 2014 3:58:42 GMT -5 by peppergirl
I think that the only reason why there aren't black deltas is because, for a reason or another, we type people from the mainstream acting startdom, and that part is almost entirely populated by white people. I think we should consider that our sample is still extremly narrow, and if you go and see the ethnicity that (watching tlf boards or mine) you see that it is overly populated by whites. So, peppergirl, i am not very willing to notice what you said because of that the smartest thing to do at this point would be to type people that is not from european descent and see what happens then. Even if i'm quite sure that there are lots of black, cinese (all the ethnicities inside only one word) arabian, mongolian etc etc belong to every single type from every quadra.
Shivaree i'm quite sure that no one here said a racist stataments :B maybe it simply dictated from personal experience of observation, that can be limited (it IS limited) for everyone. Is actually true that for the moment, of the people we have typed, there are no black people in the delta quadra, and though i said it doesn't mean anything (because of the nature of the sample we use), is a fact that at the moment they are missing in that part. About the "asian people are hard to type" there is one fundamental reason, that regards the characteristic of the asian (general term used to indicate populations of mongolia, cina, and all the east part of asia) ethnicity, the fact that the skin covers the eyes, sometimes to the point that the eyes are difficult to see, (plus, in some occasions the bad quality of videos online) and is difficult to see all the movements of the eyes. Just that, there is no racist thought behind, is just one characteristic of east asian ethnicity, sometimes is true, sometimes is less true, as always. About the physical cues of the types, i understand your doubt about these affirmations, since sometimes they are wrong or a bit superficial, but if the theory takes in account what muscles a person utilizes in his face, with the postulated that Fi users use more some facial muscles and Fe not (true also the contrary), is quite easy to understand that it leads to certain modifications in one's face. Hope i explained me well.
Heron I agree with what you said I think. I posted it in this forum because it's about understanding human diversity and nature and that people are more open-minded here than the average, otherwise I avoid these kinds of topic in other contexts. There are not many Black people indeed in our typings, so it's just a vague hypothesis. I was surprised by my findings that's all. I don't have much to add
Shivaree I think that if there's something shocking in here is the fact that you totally misinterpreted and twisted the point of the discussion and reacted in a very harsh and unfair way to what was being discussed here (and I was't even taking part in it but I watched the discussion) - I was thinking to myself what happened to you, because I have a tendency to try to find 'excuses' to people... that maybe you didn't have the chance to read those posts with calmness, I wonder... and so maybe quickly overead and overreacted to them in an unthoughtful moment... I don't know - because the discussion wasn't happening the way you 'read' it. Anyway, nobody here states that CT VR is 100% accurate in all cases, but if we don't start from the assumption that there might be a high possibility of it being a reliable tool (even if maybe not perfect and not completely ready atm