Hey there! I have a question about anima and animus and how it relates to psychological type. According to Jung, the anima is the female aspect of the male, and the animus is the male aspect of the female.
Whenever I read a description of the anima I have a feeling it might be a dominant Te/Ti user's use of inferior Feeling function. Anima seems to be the feeling aspect of thinking-type males projected onto females. For example, the anima in a male is described as "feelings, moods, intuition, receptivity for the irrational, the ability for personal love"--supposed female psychological tendencies in the male's psyche. Whenever I read a description of the animus it sounds like the use of inferior Thinking function.
My question is this: so if we have a Fi/Fe-dom, or feeling dominant male, what would the anima look like? If we have a Thinking dominant female, what would her animus look like?
I am confused because descriptions of anima sound like inferior feeling, and descriptions of animus sound like inferior thinking. Yet not all feeling types are female, and not all thinking types are male.
(which is probably a mistake, an irresistible one xD that I also couldn't help doing, it was involuntary)
seems like an Fi-Ni hybrid imo and the ways manifestation of 'animus' are described in women does seem Te imo. And it's funny that often Te-lead women (especially when they also happen to be 8s, counterphobic 6s or even 1s in the enneagramz) are often described by people in jungian language as having a 'negative animus' and a very prominent one. Well, I find it's weird when concepts seem to mingle somehow in an obscure way.
Changing the focus, I tend to notice a certain consistency in people in their 'animus' and 'anima', which can be seen through the objects of their projections. I myself have an animus that is very NOT Te. I never in my life felt any sort of 'fascination' towards a Te-lead or very heavy Te user (which is funny and ironic taking into account Te is what Jung would call my 'shadow' function). And historically my animus tends to be projected onto men who also have a very non-Te-persona, usually not even Te users (nor Fi-leads, I don't find them attractive either). But getting back to what I was saying, I find that most people tend to have a pattern in terms of love choices, and it reflects the stage of the animus/anima in te person, as well as other unconcious reasons that sometimes can't even be 'explained', only perceived. While some female friends of mine used to time after time be attracted to guys who encapsulated strength, braveness, decision, a warrior type, I never found them interesting and was more drawn to those where I found other characteristics, such as wisdom, sensitivity, knowledge, etc. Different animus, different objects of projection.
This is a question I'd love to explore more too. My initial suspicion is that each of the 16 types has a different experience of their own sex and the opposite sex. So an FiSe male and an FiSe female will differ from a TeSi male and a TeSi female --- in what the anima and animus represent.
FiSe males, I have often found to have a lot of elements of femininity native to them. It's always been a little disorienting to me, because they can seem rather "metrosexual" even if they're straight. (Re: Michael Jackson, etc) We might say that they are "in touch with" that more feminine aspect of themselves, which begs the question of how much being a high-Fi type factors into the anima/animus. Would their sexual fetish be for more Animus-esque women?
But I wouldn't generalize as far as saying "high F" types have more anima traits. This is because my experience of Fe Lead males has been one of heavy masculinity. A lot of bodybuilders and wrestlers are Fe lead types, as well as a lot of heart-throbs in hollywood. They will use Fe in a yang way, complimenting their masculine (yang) elements, but at the same time birthing a charming persuasiveness. So they're not steely or distant/aloof (animus qualities), but they are assertive.
Oppositely, Te lead males seem to be pretty straightforward. They are usually unambiguously masculine, and that goes along with their more logical and practical assets. But then you have Te lead women, which have a striking dilemma. They appear more masculine by default, and this makes me wonder whether their ego can lie in the animus.... As Alerith said in another thread, some Te lead women may take the dominating role in relationships.
My question is this: so if we have a Fi/Fe-dom, or feeling dominant male, what would the anima look like? If we have a Thinking dominant female, what would her animus look like?
I am confused because descriptions of anima sound like inferior feeling, and descriptions of animus sound like inferior thinking. Yet not all feeling types are female, and not all thinking types are male.
This is, indeed, a fascinating question. Actually, Iโve been wanting to respond in this thread for a while.. but havenโt had the opportunity to create a thoughtful post until now. I hope the topic is still viable! :0 *does CPR on thread*
After reading more deeply into Jungโs original writings on the topic of the archetypes, Iโve come to the opinion that the basis for most of the archetypal characters is our primitive interpretation of our own psychological functioning. In other words, the true nature of the Anima is the operation of the emotional center and ethos, and the true nature of the Animus is the operation of the intellect and logos. However, I think the end manifestation of personality is far too complex a topic for us to assume that the Anima plays a greater role in the personalities of F-types, and that the Animus has a greater role in T-types. I think many more case studies are needed on this topic before we can accurately decipher how the functions influence which archetypal traits are expressed in the personality.
That said, from what Iโve come to know, both males and females have an Anima and Animus, but they are situated in opposite ways in their psyches. In his written works, Jung describes a manโs sexuality as proceeding from the soul (the Anima), that is the deep, instinctual, feminine aspect of the psyche. But a man will intrinsically derive his personality from the spirit (the Animus), that is the forward-reaching, intellectual, masculine aspect of the psyche. In contrast, a womanโs sexuality derives from the spiritual โ it is motivated not as much by raw physical desire as it is by the emotion generated by idealisms โ and her personality will intrinsically derive from the soul. Now, these are rather broad generalizations, and Jung himself was sure in many places in his work to remind of the vast variation that exists amongst humanity; he taught that every psyche should be approached as a new phenomenon, without preconceptions.
From the little real-life observation Iโve had, it seems to me that the degree to which the Anima or Animus contributes to personality is more of a gradient than something unilaterally determined by gender. Both nurture and cognitive type do seem to effect the expression of the archetypes (including Anima and Animus), although from what Iโve seen, nurture plays an overall bigger role in self-identity and sexual orientation. As far as the influence of type goes, Iโve found the F-type males Iโve known/observed (especially those with Fi) to be emotionally sensitive, creative and caring in a motherly sort of way. The T-type females Iโve known (including myself) are relatively logical, practical and more concerned with efficiency or accuracy than with the particular emotional circumstance. What Iโve noticed about T-lead females, though, is that they seem to be more in-tune with the emotional side of themselves than their male T-lead counterparts. Iโm unsure how often this might be an effect of cultural pressure (as Erifrail suggested in another thread).
Regarding how type might contribute to the character of oneโs Anima or Animus, I think that it does insofar as it contributes to oneโs own self-identity. As far as the experience of T-type females goes, the only development I can speak about with any certainty is my own. In my case, the Animus is very logical and stoic, yet recessive and relatively feminine in appearance; very much like my overall self-image. His traits do play a significant role in my personality, as Iโve always identified as logical, practical and dispassionate - however, the whimsical, intuitive, creative traits of my Anima play just as significant a role.
Although I canโt speak for the experience of other people, Iโve had several close F-type male friends (all of them straight) that seem to have similarities regarding the topic of the Anima. From what theyโve described to me about their ideal woman (Anima), each is different but all are very feminine and reflect the personality of the individual. The interesting thing is that the T-lead males I know actually have a more logical, independent, stoic character for their Anima. I think that often the character of oneโs Anima/Animus is partly a reflection of their own traits. Love, after all, has a lot to do with compatibility; we desire to relate to others who have traits in common with our selves. Therefore, it makes sense that oneโs intrinsic nature would also be a contributing factor to the form their Anima/Animus takes.
Post by ayoungspirit on Apr 10, 2016 16:55:09 GMT -5
I am not quite versed into the subject, but if you allow me to pick apart some elements of your answers, I would like to ask some clarifying questions about the identification process of the Anima or Animus. I read some material, notably the definitions you posted about Anima and Animus in the media, and from there, I understand that manifestations can arise through self-identification or fantasy, with dream as a favored extension. Still, the following threads are too much intertwined for me to properly grasp them.
To begin with, I wonder how one should proceed to distinguish the anima or animus in the event of a conversation, or the relation of a fantasy or dream. I am under the impression that a lot of external factors could obfuscate the content, whereas it would be superficial trends, from the collective and personal, or other psychic effects.
Then, I would be curious to know if you developed an opinion or experience about the people who depart to some extent from the usual gender divide, for example by self-identifying to the other sex (including in dreams), or to being asexual.
Finally, we immediately put an emphasis on the judging processes, so I would like to confirm if the perception processes are to be left out. Even if we identify the Anima to "emotion", "ethos" or "relation", and the Animus to "rationality" or "intellect", I do not see any impetus for a cognitive process not to play a role in both of these categories. I did not get yet an opportunity to elaborate, but I believe that a telling example could be the potential for the Fe process to discriminate information according to the value of "truth", or "rightness", to feel their innate place in the realm of knowledge, and thus to develop "intellectual" perspicacity, or "discernement" as some Jungians may say. After all, there is a lot of "masculine", "assertive" Fe-lead which primarily identify as "thinkers", like Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Steve Jobs.
Perhaps I should mention anew that, although I am quite sensitive toward the symbolical aspect of representation, more so of a subconscious nature, I am not fully engaged by the teleological orientation of Jung's view, so that may color my words and psyche. Do you think it might relate to a "goal-oriented" cognitive framing from Je or lack thereof ? Not to delve into too much meta, but it seems to me that the Ji-Je dichotomy could play such a role in assigning self-contained "roles" or "missions" to the "archetypes".
Last Edit: Apr 10, 2016 18:02:41 GMT -5 by ayoungspirit
I like your line of questioning, ayoungspirit I don't know that I'm much more versed in this subject than you are, I've read some of Jung's writings and have my own experience with individuation to draw from, but I'm no expert! I'll share my thoughts on the matter though, perhaps they'll help lead to some insight, or generate the next layer of questioning into the topic..
To begin with, I wonder how one should proceed to distinguish the anima or animus in the event of a conversation, or the relation of a fantasy or dream. I am under the impression that a lot of external factors could obfuscate the content, whereas it would be superficial trends, from the collective and personal, or other psychic effects.
I think you're right to an extent when you say that identification of the anima/animus depends largely on superficial trends which arise from the unconscious. This often seems to be the truth for initial encounters, when one is first becoming aware of the archetype. However, from what I've read in Jung's "Red Book", and what I've experienced myself, I've seen that the person of the anima/animus solidifies more and more with each encounter, until they are experienced very much as a consistent autonomous entity. Then interaction becomes quite distinguishable, much in the way that one might experience a conversation with a close friend.
From what I've come to know, there are a few key aspects to look for in the initial stages of identification. The anima/animus will usually seem to come to you in visions or dreams, as if on their own volition. This is quite different than intentional fantasies, where one might conjure up a situation in their mind and imagine what their ideal person might be like, say or do. The second key aspect is a numinous sense; when one is approached by an archetype, it feels as if they are being approached by a god-like entity, something that might appear human, but is sensed to be much more. The figure of the anima/animus is a symbol of something unconscious, after all, and will seem to have unknown depth and meaning. The third aspect that often accompanies their appearance is the sense that they are trying to tell you something very important, or that they have knowledge that's imperative to you. These are general traits that I've seen Jung write about, and that I've observed in myself and a few others. I think, though, that identifying one's anima/animus is overall a very subjective matter. Just as with being in love, only the person who's having the experience can tell you if it's 'real'.
I do think that external factors can interrupt or skew the representation of the anima/animus, but this is the way it is with any psychic content - even conscious thoughts. I think the extent to which one is disrupted depends on how much internal focus they're capable of maintaining while in the midst of external activity. In general, though, I think the best way to access the deeper elements of one's self is in solitude.
Then, I would be curious to know if you developed an opinion or experience about the people who depart to some extent from the usual gender divide, for example by self-identifying to the other sex (including in dreams), or to being asexual.
Ah.. this is a complex topic! I think that there are many factors that contribute to one's sexual orientation, many of which aren't related to the anima/animus. Jung asserts that identification with the anima/animus is the basis for homosexuality, and I think this idea likely has at least some merit to it. From what I've seen, though, he seems to indicate that homosexuality is a pathological symptom, which I don't agree with. I think that it's also not necessary for someone to be overly identified with the opposite gender in order to be attracted to their same sex. Psychology will take as many forms as are possible within the parameters of humanity, and I think that there are likely people who do identify with their own gender, and are also attracted to the same sex.
Now, I think asexuality is most likely a pathological symptom. I haven't personally analyzed anyone who's asexual, but just from what I know about the role of the sexual function in the psyche, it would have to be subverted or redirected in an extreme way in order for someone to literally have no sense of sexual arousal. Theoretically, such a person would have to have no awareness of their anima/animus, which would also mean that they have a one-sided development and lack some dimension of their personality.
I really want to address the rest of what you've said.. but I've ran out of time for the moment >.< I hope to pick back up where I've left off later.
Now, I think asexuality is most likely a pathological symptom. I haven't personally analyzed anyone who's asexual, but just from what I know about the role of the sexual function in the psyche, it would have to be subverted or redirected in an extreme way in order for someone to literally have no sense of sexual arousal. Theoretically, such a person would have to have no awareness of their anima/animus, which would also mean that they have a one-sided development and lack some dimension of their personality.
I don't know if I agree completely with this point. When I read that part this video came immediately in my mind:
For what I could observe from asexuals (I have never encountered one, I only watched a couple of video of people talking about their experiences), I could see that, at least it seems superficially, their sense of gender identity is not necessarily weak. They look, and dress themselves in quite an androgynous way at times, and they might not share many similarities with other people from the same gender which they belong to, but that isn't always the case. It seems that a gender identification is still there, usually, even if it might be weak. So, I they do have a sense of femininity and masculinity, and they can still identify with one of the two. I don't know how this would translate in a Jungian interpretation, I guess that some studies should be made to understand the symbolic representations they have of animus and anima, to understand if it's different or identical to other individuals. Also, asexual people do fall in love, and do form strong bonds with others. Another interesting thing that I was able to notice is that often times there is a certain superficial "coldness" and passivity in the way they express themselves and relate to others, they might noticeably lack a certain energy and assertiveness. (not always) I think that, if we talk about sexuality, we could mean it in many different ways. Asexuals would be people that don't have, or posses a very weak "archaic" sexual drive, which is inherently biological and instinctual, strongly connected to bodily needs and erotic in the classical way. While there is another sexual drive which is more emotional and mental, which is peculiar of humans and certain intelligent animals (coming from what Wilber would call the Noosphere), that is somewhat more sophisticated. And, I would dare say, there are way many people on earth that have a very weak "mental-emotional" sexuality, like psychopaths for examples, who by contrast posses a very strong archaic sexual drive. Indeed, asexuals, like the ones showed in the video, do form strong bonds, do keep solid monogamous relationships, but their physical sexual drive is limited to "cuddling" and kissing, which his by itself some sort of sexual bonding, even if not erotic like it happens to normal couples. In fact, asexuals, just like normal people, can be etero/homo/bisexual just like any other person in the world, they just don't have an erotic component to their relationships. So, I guess that asexuality is just another colour in the palette of human complexity, and I wouldn't say that it is a pathological manifestation of the psyche, not any more than homosexuality and bisexuality are. I guess that something can really be considered pathological if it has potential of generating harm in the problematic individual and in the collective. Asexuality doesn't generate harm in the collective, and for what I could read about the topic, asexuals usually have good times and bad times like most "healthy" people.
"Archaicยฎ" and "mentalยฎ" sexual drives are concepts totally invented by myself, I have no clue if any of this has ever been theorized by anyone. Please do not use this terminology in your dissertation and secret mindshifting/groundbreaking book on gender studies that i know you're secretly writing at this present moment if you don't want to be sneered by your peers, superiors and colleagues, unless you made a research that holds it. In that case please write my name. Please. Seriously. Thanks.
Imo, the most obvious answer to why some people identify as asexual to begin with is because they fail to see it as a symptom of something else -- like a psychological (i.e. depression, trauma, shame, etc.) or physical (i.e. hormones, fatigue, etc) issue. Things like that can (temporarily) entirely diminish one's sex drive and make them feel "asexual". Having said that, I've read several times that asexuality is real but extremely rare.